SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome home, where healing and restoration are celebrated in stories from those who have walked through fire and come out the other side. Welcome to the Pursuing Redemption Podcast with Heather Shore.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

What is going on, everybody? This is Duke White. You're watching Real Life with Duke White. Uh, and I'm really excited about this next interview. You guys know I have a special heart for uh authors, uh, and and especially authors who, you know, who are warriors, uh, and you're about to meet a warrior. Uh, this is somebody who I've had a chance to meet over the last few months, and uh they just have a phenomenal story. Uh, but I do want to encourage everybody to not just watch the interview, get the books, get involved. We want to empower our faith-based artists, our faith-based authors. Why? Because God didn't tell them to write books for nothing. We're supposed to read them. Uh, you know, and and so if you need that dose of encouragement, if you need to feel like a connection, uh, these there's people out there that God has sent uh that have written amazing books, and uh, and then and so it's important that we as the body of Christ support them. Also, you see the background I got is the coming soon Jesus, coming soon Yeshua shirts. We are getting one million believers together to share this message. Uh, and you know, over the last 25 years, we've been doing this, but this is unique. Uh, we've got my man Kevin Sorbo, who's gonna be helping us out, and a guy named Damon Redding, who does the uh the church accountability. And so, you know, that's very, very important that we're able to make this happen. So on January 1st, we're asking everybody to wear the Coming Soon Jesus shirts and take pictures of themselves in the shirts, flood the internet with the pictures of people wearing the Coming Soon Jesus shirts. Um, someone asked me if we're trying to scare people, and the answer is no. This is a message of unity, it's it's a message that brings the body of Christ together. It's definitely not about scaring people, so relax. Uh, but we do want to tell everybody that we love them and that Jesus is coming soon, which is that's the one message that the body of Christ agrees with. So without further ado, I want to bring up Miss Heather V. Shaw. Hello, Heather. How are thou?

SPEAKER_00 2:20

I'm great. How are you, dude?

SPEAKER_01 2:22

It's good to see you. Good to see you. It's great to see you.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

I know, I know, our crazy schedules.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I was just telling you about my time today. If you guys, if you only knew what I went through to get here, uh trains, planes, and automobiles. Oh my gosh. Annoying, annoying, annoying. It only happens when you have somewhere to go. That's all right. So the first question that I have for you, uh, is uh, you know, when did you fall in love with writing? When did you even know that you were a writer?

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Oh gosh, that was probably about, let's see, my son is 12. So I really started writing around that time. So probably 13 years ago, um, it was really placed on my heart that at some point I should share my story. And so um, yeah, I started writing a book. I had a friend who has a book marketing agency out in Nashville, Tennessee. And I said, Hey, I have an idea and a story and all the things. Would you be willing to give me some advice on what to do? And the name of that company is Epiphany Creative Services, and they helped me out. And we got my first book written, which is about my story of overcoming domestic violence and coming to know who Jesus Christ is. So that was Deeply Wounded Hope 13 years ago. And then since then, I've written God Box, which is about Holy Spirit empowerment and how to live in wholeness and freedom. And then the last one that I just wrote is called Shake Off the Lies, which is really about untangling all the lies out of your life and really starting to step into abundance and what that means, and that it is possible to live that out this side of heaven.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Yeah, and and what is that like when you're writing? And you know, in order to help people, you kind of have to be vulnerable. So, what is it like having to invite people into that vulnerability? Because, like, once they read the book and then they're like, Wow, I know you've been through this. And I think a lot of people try to hide that I've I'm going through this. So, first of all, thank you for your courage and being vulnerable. Uh, but but what is that process like in in case someone feels that tug, but that's what the argument in their head is.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Sure, yeah. I have always felt just the need to be authentic. I've always been a very honest person. I think that's something that the Lord placed in me as a young kid because my parents would always say, like, you know, if anyone was gonna tell the truth, it was me. And so, um, yeah, I've never lived from a place other than that. I I will say I've gone through seasons of really trying to perform. So maybe that's how I sort of masked what I was going through. And um, but for the most part, I've just really been, I think, encouraged through my story. And because the Lord really took me on a journey of sharing my story with a lot of people as a survivor speaker with different domestic violence organizations in the United States, it just really helped open up the doors to be able to be genuine with people. Because what I've come to realize, and it's one of the things I feel like the church in the US doesn't do a good job of, is that it's one in three women and one in four men just in the United States alone that go through abuse at some point in their life. And so those people are sitting in the pews of our churches all over, and they need help. They're broken, sometimes they're hiding it, and they really just need an authentic voice that's going to welcome them in and say, hey, you know what? It's okay to share your story, and we're here for you, and we want to be there for you.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Um so, first of all, let's let me ask you this. What what actually what is abuse? Uh, because uh I think that's one of the the the you know, and I had a deep conversation with my daughter, uh, which was very uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable. Um because she she was I you know, I was talking about how oh, this generation's too soft, they get offended by everything. They do. And then she said, Well, your generation was taught to tolerate abuse. And I was like, You're talking about my mom, and and then I started thinking about the firing plans, the firing plans, and it was like this cultural ignorance of what a beauty was, and you know, or or people you know lashing out because they had a bad day, but they're lashing out at the kids, and and she said, Oh, that's just family. But clearly, on the back end of that, there are some serious psychological damages. So I'd love to hear from you. Uh, are we are we talking about raising voices? Are we talking about, you know, uh, is it abuse to call names? Is it a like what is abuse?

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Sure. Well, there are many different forms of abuse. So it could be anything from emotional abuse, which is somebody that is putting you down, neglecting you, gaslighting you. There's multiple different ways emotional abuse can happen. There can be financial abuse where somebody's controlling everything in your life, right? They're controlling the finances, they're controlling the money. Um, there can be verbal abuse, which is where they're constantly calling you names, cursing at you all the time. Um again, putting you down, really just coming at you from a verbal standpoint. Physical abuse is what it is, is where somebody actually beats you up and hits you, and and um there's a lot that goes into that. And I can share a little bit more of my story and all that happened. And then obviously there's spiritual abuse too, which is going on in the church where people will use scripture and other things to really manipulate. And um, that's something that you have to be very careful of. But really, at the end of the day, all of those are different forms of abuse, but abuse really is about power and control. Who has the upper hand in the relationship and how are they going to go about using that against you or for you? And I just think there's so many people that have not done the work. They're great people, but they have not done the work internally to heal all the wounds of what they were raised in, and therefore then they're perpetrating these behaviors out on other people.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Oh, absolutely. And then you have these cultural justifications, you have, you know, all types of generational. Oh, my mom does.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Oh, so many, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

And so I I, you know, it was it was definitely something to reflect on because you know, even though I genuinely do believe this is really a soft generation, you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Uh oh, I agree, yeah, for sure. Because I'm I'm I have some as employees.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Right. But my concern is the lack of education that the body of Christ has and the lack of preparation that the churches have on on how to deal with someone that that is coming because someone that's coming to the church from abuse, um, they have to be handled very delicately. And uh sometimes they're just thrown in the mix with everyone else. But you know, that's like saying someone has a headache and someone has a bullet wound, and you just hand them a Tylenol, it's yeah, you can't treat it all the same. Um the question then becomes this you know, how who can you trust to have the patience to walk through that healing process with someone who's been abused?

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Yeah, this is where I would say I would really plug into inner healing and deliverance ministries, where they use the Holy Spirit to really get to the bottom of the route. I also think therapy is very important. I think you need to see a therapist as well if you have the money, right? And you have the insurance. I think they can utilize tools that, you know, not necessarily someone in a church would utilize. Um, but I think what's really happened at the end of the day, and and to me it's a little bit sad, is that the church has really left that whole space. And now when you look at like the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, when you look at some of the mainstream areas, it's all psychology. And I think because I've done both, um, I've done the therapy, I've done the EMDR, I've done, I've done inner healing and deliverance. What Holy Spirit can do in terms of healing is so much faster than sitting through, say, 20 sessions with a counselor. And I think you just you need both. I'm not saying that you don't do one or the other, but I really think at the end of the day, if you want to walk in freedom, you need to look at doing both options.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

It's interesting because I uh you you were on the the prayer call today, uh, and I was able to bring an example of what that that neglect was a form of abuse. Yes, yeah, it is. And it was it was very interesting because I was like, wow, you know, when we are neglectful with the word of God, we're automatically going to be neglectful, you know, with our families. Um but I also thought about like the kids in foster care. You know, a lot of times people in foster care they go, Oh, you you need to be happy that you I fostered you, but their environment is very abusive. Um what what do you say to people that feel like the abuse that they received, uh it's now become their identity, and now they pretty much they they don't know how to get out of that, they don't know how to set boundaries. So I guess the question would be um in the healing process, like how valuable is that word boundaries, and how does a person give themselves permission to say, I need he, I'm I'm being healed right now, I can't deal with this, I'm setting boundaries. Uh but what like what are those parameters like and and when is it okay to set boundaries?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Well, I think to go back to what you were saying just a minute ago, is that, and I I completely agree with you, so many people take these like their diagnosis or what happened to them in their past, and they wear it as a t-shirt. And I'm just like, that's not who God says you are. So you have to get your identity rooted in Christ. And as long as your identity is rooted in Christ, then from there you can really live out love, you can really live out forgiveness, and then you can really live out boundary setting. And I just know for me personally, it just took just years of being able to say, hey, you know what? I'm going to be kind to you and I'm going to respond to you in kindness, but here's where it stops, right? Here's my fence that is around me. And you're not allowed past that. And that just takes time. I think that also takes going back to healing those wounds that are inside of you to know like where that boundary line needs to be. And then, of course, ask Jesus. Jesus will show you, he'll show you who to put boundaries in place with, he'll show you where that boundary line needs to be drawn. I mean, there's a scripture and it's escaping me right now. But um, one of my inner healing counselors used it all the time where they were like, the Lord sets boundaries in good places, and it's escaping me where it is in the Bible. I think it's in Psalms, but I could be wrong. And that He draws good boundary lines. And he's all about, I mean, when you look at all the examples of the Old Testament about land and boundaries and where people should live and not live, I think the same application is just true in our own lives, and we just have to live it out.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Yeah, yeah. And and and you know, and I and I think that sometimes uh I do believe that the healing and deliverance process also requires intimacy with God, prayer and really focusing on that. But we live in such a rushed society, and then and it and it's and we were really meant to be there for each other. Yes, but it seems like most people will settle for burying issues, uh, because healing often causes you to confront it. Uh do you find that to be true?

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Oh, absolutely. And also, too, sometimes healing is instant and sometimes it takes time. Um, I just think of my friend. So, a friend and I, we went through this Bible study together, um, and it was about coming into right relationship with the Trinity. And I watched my friend get completely miraculously healed of multiple sclerosis, and through going through inner healing and deliverance, she found out that some people in her life had abused her and had sexually abused her. That was one of the abuses that I didn't bring up, but sexual abuse is very common as well. And as a result of that sexual abuse, that is why she had stuffed all these memories down, but it was making her sick. And so when God went back in and supernaturally and surgically helped her heal, she now is walking, running, and plays golf every Friday. And so I just think I think there's the miraculous that's getting ready to happen when people actually take the time to sit down with Jesus and do the work. And there are a lot of people who are gonna run from that, and that's between them and the Lord. But I really think the ecclesia and the body of Christ that are called to live out the end times need to do this in order to be effective in the world.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah, that was good because I I think that uh we created a culture where everyone has like the the whole term of being strong, right? Yeah. And everyone has a story, and so it's like, okay, well, I guess my story's not important, so let me just put on this strong face. Um but but the like what happens when you bury so much and and you know now it's affecting in other places.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Now, now I I will I do have to ask you this because um when someone has experienced a certain amount of trauma, how do you want to believe that is they want to believe that there's a place where they'll forget the trauma. Uh, how do you heal uh even if what you've been through is always at the forefront or in your mind where where it comes across your mind daily? Is it possible to heal while still being very aware that it happened?

SPEAKER_00 16:23

I think so. And I think God in his goodness sometimes will take those memories and replace them just and also erase them. I mean, I'll just speak for me personally. I um didn't realize there were some memories that I really needed to deal with a few years ago, and he brought them up. And I sat down with my counselor and I was like, hey, I didn't realize like they had been buried, right? Because they were so traumatic and everything. And I don't, I mean, I don't mind sharing, but um my my first husband, he strangled me and and he beat me. Like I'm incredibly lucky to be alive. And um the God brought me back to that memory. I think it was like three years ago, four years ago, somewhere in there, because there were just some things within that memory that he really wanted to heal, but I had super buried it, right? Like I was, I had forgotten all of that because your mind can compartmentalize, right? When you've gone through that severe level of trauma and everything. But I just think in his kindness, he was like, hey, we just we need to deal with this so you can help other people. And not that you need to remember all the details, and I didn't remember all the details, but just remember that these certain things did happen. So then you can turn around and help that lady over there who's got some marks on her neck, or maybe she's got some marks on her arm because you know what she's going through. Well, but he does, he he'll replace, he'll heal them. Sometimes he just flat out wipes them clean, and I can't explain that. You know what I mean? Like that's stupid.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

The joy of the Lord is overwhelming. It really the deliverance is real, you know what I mean? But it'll be aligned, like you said, to help someone, it would it won't just be to keep you in a state of grief. So I agree with you 100%. But but my my deepest concern is for those who have been abused, uh, and some twisted way uh they've made themselves believe that that's what they deserve. Do you understand what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Oh, I do understand what you're saying. Yeah, because that's part of um oh, what is that syndrome called? Isn't it like this? Their Stockholm is it Munchhausen?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

I think that's part of it where it gets so twisted in their mind that they're like, I deserved this, or I had it coming, or whatever. Or they just truly, at the end of the day, that really comes back to believing the lies of the enemy, right? They have believed that lies of the enemy for so long that they believe then that they deserve it. Um, and that's just the enemy trying to take you down. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Yeah, now uh with that being said, this is really interesting that uh when I looked at the the website when we first met, I was I was genuinely thrown off uh because I was under the impression that this was mainly for women who were abused and things like that. But you had no problems whatsoever saying that it actually happens to men too. Yep. Yep. You know, what do you what do you think are the do you think the struggles are the same? Or do you think the the struggles uh pr you know present themselves differently for men?

SPEAKER_00 19:54

I think they present them differently for men. Um, but I do know that women have just become, and I mean this nicely when I say it, but some women have become really hostile. And I've I've heard about it from my friends that are out in the dating world and they're like, listen to what happened. And I'm like, good grief. I'm so sorry. Like that woman should have not treated you that way. Um, but I will say I think what I've noticed the most when I talk to men that have gone through this is that a lot of times it's verbal. It's all verbal abuse, and that the women just put them down. They, you know, they scream at them, they yell at them, they they just say really nasty things that are incredibly hurtful to a man, and men don't deserve that. And then also to have seen a lot of emotional abuse in men where they're just incredibly neglected, or you know, their wives or partners have just run them into the ground um emotionally and they just they shut down. And um, I think it's incredibly common. I I recently heard of a few cases of where there are women that are beating men, you know what I mean? And that's I've heard it's pretty uncommon typically, but I have heard of a few cases recently where I'm like, what is going on in the world?

SPEAKER_01 21:09

It's very interesting because a lot of men like for for a lot of men interpret it as shame, obviously. Yeah, uh, but also um men feel like they they always have to be the hero. Which and then of course, especially if you are a Christian, you're like, okay, I have to be gentle. So uh so it's it's like again, uh men struggle with those boundaries. Uh most men haven't been taught or coached on how to deal with their emotions in the first place. Sure. And and you know, it especially now even if the abuse, let's say the abuse is not happening to the children, but they're watching mom and dad argue and abuse each other. W what do you do you think that there is a spiritual uh or even a psychological effect that that has on children?

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Oh, absolutely. And it travels down the generational line. So it says that this is going on for three and four generations above you, right? And so I definitely think if It's going in between a married couple and your children are seeing it, then yes. And someone most likely in your family was abusive somewhere, right? For you to keep perpetrating this, and then it does have a psychological effect for sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

So if the couple's doing it to each other, they're abusing each other, verbally, whatever. Uh but they're not doing it to the kids. Yes, it affects the kids.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

unknown 22:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

And and I know and the reason why I I I I want everybody to hear that is because so often that becomes the justification when a child says, You traumatized me, mom and dad, and they're like, We never did anything to you. And it's like the way you treated each other. Sure. That's a valid point, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Absolutely. I mean, it says we're supposed to be honoring to one another.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

And when you're doing that kind of behavior in front of your children, I just a lot of times, one, I don't think people are thinking that they're watching and they are watching. And two, I think the parents just haven't taken the time to really do the work. And they're just they're not paying attention to how that family dynamic is impacting the children.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

All right. Now, this is a big one. And I thought uh this is this is huge. This one's huge. Because what happens if you're getting uh uh verbally abused on a job, but you're getting good money, and if you say anything, you could actually lose because when you the reason why that you kind of didn't think of it when you said it's about power, you know, and I'm like, well, the people who've cut your paychecks have power. And oh absolutely, yeah. And then I thought to myself, like, oh my gosh, boundaries, power, but it's your false. Uh yeah. And is it possible to be uh to accept a certain amount of abuse because you're in a workplace?

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Oh yeah, absolutely. I've seen it multiple times. Um, I would say I would just pray. I would pray really hard on how long to stay at a job. I would put some really appropriate boundaries in place, and just speaking professionally, I would document everything because it needs to be documented.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Because uh the the thing about that I noticed about uh people who have been abused, one is the level of shame, and then they get the level of insecurity, the the the they get locked inside of themselves to where they are afraid to ask for help. Um yeah, that's true a lot. Yep. And maybe it has to do with that syndrome you were talking about, because I'm like, why if you're being hurt, why I still struggle with saying why why is it so hard to say help?

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Well, I think it comes back to shame, like you're saying. And shame is, you know, it's spirit, you need to get rid of it, you need to get it out of your life. Um, but really, I think at the end of the day, somewhere along the line, you saw something in your life that caused you to emulate that and to make you think that it was okay for people to treat you that way. And so again, it just really comes back to you, you've got to take the time and you've got to take the initiative to really say, okay, hey, I want to heal, I don't want to live in shame anymore. And shame's a booger, but yeah, you can get rid of it and you can walk in freedom, but that freedom comes through Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Okay, so and I want to be totally honest with you. You're like oozing this peace like across the screen, and but I know that day-to-day life is like a warfare. Like this, so is this like is this like a one-time fix, or is this something that you have to do every single day?

SPEAKER_00 25:39

In terms of what?

SPEAKER_01 25:41

In terms of having the peace that I'm seeing on you.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

I mean, that's just time with Jesus, and I I've been rocking out to this new elevation rhythm song. And so I'm like, I just I'm ready to see revival happen. Like, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

To me, you but you just actually said the answer. It's like what you put your mind on, yeah. Uh is because I noticed like there's a whole industry for like depressed music, you know. Uh, and there's like there is, there is. Oh yeah. It's like, you know, it's like I remember you being dumped by my girlfriend, and then I'd listen to breakup music, and it just the next thing I know, um, you know, but but uh how how important is it when you're when you're trying to uh walk out of an abusive situation and and it how important is it really to to you know listen to music that uplifts you and things like that? Or am I just talking crazy? Does it really make a difference?

SPEAKER_00 26:40

I think it does make a difference. I also think you need to be very careful, like what TV shows and things that you watch, right? Because we, and I am I will fully admit that there have been TV shows that I have binge watched just because I wanted my mind, right, just to have a break from everything. But I would say just be very careful what you watch. And they weren't bad shows, it was like Big Bang Theory. Because I just wanted to laugh. That is one thing. I just wanted to laugh when I was going through this stuff because it was so traumatic and so hurtful that I would actually watch comedy shows just so I could have relief and also just to give my mind a break. So entertainment isn't bad. I think you just have to be careful what you put in it.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Yeah, that's very true. That's very true. Now, one of the biggest things that that uh how do you give yourself permission to have a new identity uh when you come out of something like that to say, okay, I'm going to be where I was not confident and insecure, I'm now going to be confident and secure. How do you how do you walk in a new identity?

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Oh, that's a great question. Um, I would say just one day at a time. Um, I had some wonderful people that came alongside me a long time ago, and they were like, This is not who you are. And we're just gonna prophesy over your life that you're gonna walk into something better and that God has great plans for you. And I just held on to that. That was 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Yeah, yeah. And now, you know, someone who's come out of an abusive relationship, obviously, the the question then becomes how do you give yourself this the confidence to still give relationship uh another chance? Because I genuinely don't believe that we're supposed to be alone, you know what I mean? And and so uh I I wonder, you know, it like how do you trust someone to be comfortable with again after that, you know, because they they always like whatever baggage you had in one relationship, you'll bring something. Well, that'll make people want to quit. They'll be like, hey, no one can my baggage, no one can handle my situation. So how do you not disqualify yourself?

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Oh, that's a very limited question because I just uh walked out of a relationship with someone. Um it's hard. It's really, really hard. I agree with you. Um, I'm a single mom. I would love to be married again, but you have to really be willing to weigh the options of what God has for you. And I think you have to be willing to wait for God's best, and sometimes that's really hard to wow.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

A Kessum. I don't know if you remember me talking about Kessum. Yeah, yeah. One of the things, oh, just in case everybody uh kessum is a word when you basically uh it's the word for rebellion, uh, but basically what it is is this idea that uh if you get any other information from any other source other than God, it is the same as witchcraft. And what provoked my what provoked my pursuit of this is when I was looking at uh Saul was supposed to uh or Samuel the prophet was supposed to pray over the armies of Israel before they went to war. Uh, but because he took too long, Saul decided he was gonna do it. And Samuel says to Saul, uh, rebellion is as witchcraft. That's how we interpret it as witchcraft. Um, and and I was going, wait a minute, he didn't he didn't go to a witch and he didn't do any of that, he only talked to himself. And it was like, oh, there it is, right there. And then again, the word kessum is the concept where because Moses took too long, and you start seeing this pattern where it's like the the waiting is where the either the enemy attack or your impatience will move on behalf of God. Um and then I started thinking about the scripture that actually says let patience have her excellent work. And it's like, oh, and and when I think about all of my horrible ideas and all this craziness that I got myself into, usually it came from uh me not waiting on God. Yeah, that's where 99% of my like everyone knows the difference of when I'm walking with God, and like that's a Duke idea right there. That one's but my my I then then the question then becomes you know, uh do you know when it's okay to share with someone, especially if you've come from something traumatic and everything, and do when is it okay to share with someone that you're with currently, or you know, like to say these are the things that I've been through in my life. Because in most cases, what we've seen is people dump their trauma onto each other. How do we communicate what we've been through without like dumping it?

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for me personally, I just in my own journey of dating that I've been through the last five years, like I really try and wait a good month before I say anything. I really try and get to know someone before I say, like, hey, I really need to sit down and tell you like what I've walked through. Just so you can have the information as to whether or not you want to continue to get to know me. But I don't do it all at once. Um, but my story is not easy, and so I fully recognize that. And I've told multiple people it's it's gonna take a really special person to be with me just because my story is really hard. Um, and I I fully recognize that and and understand it. But I I just think you have to be really careful. It also comes back to that verse in the Bible where it says not to throw your pearls before swine. And I think we really need to be honest with ourselves and with the people that we're dating and in relationships with of like, hey Jesus, when is the right time for me to tell them?

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

And Jesus may say, hey, this isn't your person, and you don't need to throw your pearls there, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Right. So I I I agree a hundred percent. What would and and and it you know, when I when I came out of my situation, when my my divorce, it was it was a mess. Uh and and and uh I stayed in my mess, uh, because of course I'm like, I don't I don't want God to think I gave up because he never gives up on me. I started up all of these things, like God can turn it around, God can He can. And he can and you hear these testimonies of people whose marriages face this, this, and this. And you know, uh for me, I because I remember the shame, you know, my ex-wife, uh Obama did the whole thing with the gay marriage thing, and I I knew, I just knew. I'm like, oh, this is this is gonna end bad for me. And you know, I knew that she kind of had the party life, she came out of the party life and kind of oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So then when he gave that kind of permission and then and she made the decision to to leave me for a woman, I felt nothing but shame. You know what I mean? And it was like, oh no, like, you know, how do I how do I change it? Yeah, and this is after she got pregnant by someone else, and then I ended up, you know, at you know, yeah, it was so it was like what that is a fun lifetime story right there, Duke. Oh, it's a blast. Uh and but here's the crazy part. I remember the father telling me that I wasn't being authentic because the reason I stayed from the first situation, knowing that I had a biblical reason and to leave, I stayed because I didn't want people to think this, and I didn't want people to think my family was dysfunctional. I didn't want people to think this, so it really wasn't about God, yeah, about what people thought of me, and then it just accumulated. Uh, and and that's kind of what I wanted to encourage people about was like, hey, have the courage to value you, and and and amen. And and and and that's kind of what I want to ask you is um why do you think it's a struggle for people to say, hey, I don't have to tolerate this, I'm valuable. Uh what do you think that thing is?

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Um well, I yeah, I literally just had this conversation yesterday with my intern. Um I think part of it is that we're a very lonely culture. Um, you know, social media, screens, all of the things have really come in and circumvented relationships. I think the younger generation is wanting more authentic connections, right? They're wanting things that are in person. And I think if we would just get outside of our bubble, get outside of ourselves, we wouldn't be so lonely. And therefore, then we wouldn't disvalue ourselves, right? We would see ourselves as valuable as to what we bring to relationships, um, what we bring in every area of life. But I think part of it is that the enemy has done a really great job of creating loneliness in this culture through technology. And this is coming from somebody that works in technology, and I've seen what it's done, and and I just don't think it's good.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do have to answer this because you said you're a single mom. Yes, sir. And a lot a lot a lot of single uh parents uh tend to auto like I I because I got you know, my ex-wife, you know, uh left me with the kids, and it which is fine. Wow. But my thing is this, I I remember thinking no one's gonna want a single dad with three children, you know what I mean? Um I hear you.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

I understand.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

How do we not disqualify ourselves uh in those situations? Like by being just by being a single parent.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Hmm. I just I don't know, maybe it's just like crazy confidence, but I'm like, I have so much going for me, and I bring so much to the table, right? Like I'm hard working, I work three jobs right now, I have two children. I will, if I like you, I will truly make time for you, you know. But like I bring a lot to the table. I have a lot to offer and I have a lot of love to give. And so I'm just I don't know, I see myself as valuable and I'm just not gonna settle. And I think I again it comes back to mindset, it comes back to knowing your identity in Christ. If you know that, it doesn't matter what your resume looks like. Yeah, you bring a lot to the table and you need to walk that out.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

And I I think it's about what you just said to us. You said that people you were surrounded by people that spoke into you and spoke into you. Amen. Yep. Because you know, I think that so much of it has to do with the the people you choose to be around. Yeah. Because you can you can always find someone that will agree with you in your despair. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

And I've had those friends, and we've walked through those seasons, and we've all sort of turned a corner, right? Like I had some friends that walked with me through my divorce five years ago, and I I absolutely treasure them. And they've also grown and healed and walked forward in faith, and so that's been really cool to see. But we didn't stay stuck, right? We did, we did for six months. We we had a pity party every day because we were all going through divorces at the same time, and I think that was just God's kindness to surround me with people that were walking through the same journey, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you know, and it's just for a season, but again, we didn't stay stuck. We were like, okay, how do we go about living out our better lives? We all had children, we all had to figure it out, we didn't have a choice, and so I mean, you can't just sit there and wallow. At some point, you have to stand up and go. It says in Exodus 14, 14, to be still, right? And he will fight for you. But if you look at verse 15, what does he tell the Israelites? Get up and go. Yeah, you may sit there for a second, it may be six months, like I did. But then after that six months, you get your butt up and you walk across the Red Sea.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's interesting because it seems like uh everyone I know that has has overcome addiction, everyone that has overcome, you know, the the what I call the the the identity crisis, which is which is this just is the way I am, it's just the way I am. No, nope, nope, because what you're saying is that you that God made you this way, and that's just not true. You know, so it's like I'm angry, I'm an angry person, except it's like, no, that's no, that's spirit. Yeah, you know what I mean. Uh and and so I think that that again, uh I I know for a fact that uh that when the word of God truly uh connects with you, there's this this change that that really takes place, and and you almost become okay with saying, oh, like especially when it comes to the stuff that was self-inflicted. Like I like I remember you know saying, oh, I I was actually being very insecure when I was talking about this. Oh, I this is why this happened, or you know, and so um I think it's very important that we don't become self-abusive and and self-reflectible. Um we we can we can actually fuel the fire of what we've already been through uh by accepting a false identity of ourselves, and we'll we'll miss opportunities because we think we're not qualified, and then you know, next thing you know, uh we become those self-fulfilling prophecies, as they should. I I would like to ask this because um there are many churches that think they do healing and deliverance, you know, and it's more just you know, and it's just like what is this? So what is the pro what is healing and deliverance actually look like?

SPEAKER_00 40:26

That's a really good question. Uh I mean salvation means healed, hold, and delivered. That's what salvation means. And so when you uh come into salvation with Jesus Christ, that's technically what you're walking into. He died on a cross for you to make you hold, healed, and delivered. And so for me, it's a combination of two things. Um, I think there's actual healing that takes place where you will see supernatural healing completely man, and I hate this word, manifest itself physically, right? Because everybody's using it and they're using it for witchcraft purposes, right? But you will see it come to fruition, right, in front of your eyes. And there have been some things that I've seen in the healing rooms here in Tulsa that I just you sit there and you go, I can't explain that. That was totally Jesus. So that's one aspect of it, right? But it always comes back to um to me, which is deliverance, which is learning what lies you've believed, and how do you overcome those lies and what spirits are you dealing with, right? So that's where is it anger towards your spouse or your kids? My kids sometimes make me very angry. Um you know, or is it, you know, is it um, like you said, self-hatred? Is it rejection? Is it rebellion? What are you dealing with? What are these lies and these things spiritually that you're dealing with that is causing you to be sick? And when God identifies those, it's amazing to see how he then reroutes things and heals. And I I just keep coming back to this story. I I I love the story is just because I got to physically witness it. This sweet, sweet girl comes in. I'm gonna call her a girl because I think she was in her 20s and everything, and she was going blind in her left eye. And we sit down. What we I love about the healing rooms is that we'll sit down and pray, and we'll be like, Okay, Lord, what are you revealing? Like they come in and they say, Hey, this is what I'm dealing with, like, this is what I need prayer for. It's truly just prayer ministry, but we're going after a lot of times healing and deliverance. And um, she comes in, like, hey, I'm going blind in my left eye, here's what's going on. And she comes in, and before she gets in there, we pray and everything. And I said, Hey, I just really hear from the Holy Spirit that it's a block in her spirit that she's got unforgiveness somewhere. And we go, and the leaders are so kind, right? They're raising us up, several of us new people. They're raising us up to be, you know, prayer warriors. And um my friend goes, Well, hey, Heather, when she comes in, why don't we like, why don't you gently ask her, you know, like, hey, what are you dealing with? Do you think there's a block in your spirit somewhere that like that's what we're hearing? And so we I gently ask that question to this girl and it breaks. And she just starts sobbing. And come to find out, nothing against her husband, but she had some unforgiveness towards her husband because he had allowed some people into their lives that were not safe. I guess they were friends in a gang or something like that, and she just she didn't feel safe, and she didn't feel like her kids were safe. And so she was holding on to this just resentment towards her husband of just not, you know, feeling safe. And it wasn't that it was something huge or that it was causing anything, but what was wild is that resentment was causing her to go blind in her left eye. Wow. She can see now.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

And thank I'm still just blown away by that. I was like, it was something so tiny, and I think that honestly is what's going on in the body of Christ. Unforgiveness and bitterness. And I think if we would just get to the root issues of those two things, we would start to see crazy stuff happen.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

Well, I think when when you put all of the effort that you just talked about into protecting your comfort zone, that now just becomes a cover up, protect my comfort zone, cover up, don't let people in. That becomes the the vicious cycle. And this is really difficult for believers who love Yeshua, who love Jesus. This is very difficult, admitting that unforgiveness is there because I've been pastoring since I was 17. And I would I would preach, you know. I'm sure you've seen all kinds of stuff. But even with my own. So I'm preaching these dynamic messages about forgiveness and things like that. And then uh this kind of created a strange relationship with my kids. They're not adults, and they're kind of like distant from me. And I'm like, What did I do? Well, what it was was when I got the feedback, it's like we watched you preach amazing messages about love, forgiveness, things like that. And then get in the car when mom would call, you'd be like, What is that per? What does that be want? You know, what is that?

SPEAKER_00 45:19

And it's just like yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

You know, they're like that you didn't forgive, or whenever we're kids, whenever we bring up your demeanor drops. We know, like, and and I'm like, not me, I'm pastor. And then and then uh I got diagnosed with cancer uh a year and a half ago, and uh someone said, Hey, dude, man, would you like to be healed? And I'm like, Oh, God, whatever with the will of God is, I'm cool with it. They're like, nah, man, that's unforgiveness. And I'm like, why does this thing keep showing up? God, did something you want to tell me? As soon as I start operating, uh, you know, and and and accepted that I was hard forgiveness, and we've been divorced for 11, 11 years. And I'm like, really? You like like unforgiveness? Um when why do you think it's so hard for believers to accept that they struggle with forgiveness?

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Because they don't believe God is good, and they don't believe that a good God would cause some of the things that are caused, and they blame a lot of things on Jesus and the Trinity, instead of really saying, Hey, you know what? If he's pointing something out in you, it's because he wants to help you and he wants to help you grow, and he's still good.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Yeah, yeah. And you know, that's so good because it made me think of this. It made me think a lot of times people think, well, if if if I'm supposed to be a believer, I I can't have this struggle.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

That's not true, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Yeah, and that's not true at all. That's not true. You know, I'm not and and and like you said, if if he's bringing it to surface, he's saying, Let me with this. Yeah, uh, and but I but I think also when you operate in unforgiveness, there is a sense of a reality where I you I don't trust God, I protect myself.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Yep. Oh yeah, self-protection is huge. I've done it.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

I've seen my kids do it. Just like, oh, you learned that from me.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

You know, yeah. Right, right. That's true. It is, you know, um, but but again, you know, I I I'm amazed that you you you you've written so many books, uh, and and you're not afraid to tackle these subjects. I mean, like, I feel like God trusted you with this journey, and I'm genuinely proud of you for, you know, one your website's amazing, by the way. Uh thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

It's being redesigned.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

It's being redesigned, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's old, but thank you. But I'm just I'm like, like for you to be uh so open and and and willing to share your story to help others, that's such a powerful thing. Um I I would have to to make this last this point on because I I don't want anyone thinking that this is an adult conversation or about parents and kids and this and that. Oh, sure. A lot of times it happens to teenagers as well. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and and I'd love for you to talk about that. Do you believe that young dating high school kids can actually deal with abuse?

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Oh yes, yeah, it's actually become very prevalent in younger 14 to 18. And they're, I believe it's in February. So, you know, everybody has a month, right? So, like National Domestic Violence Month is October, which is coming up soon. But then the dating one for people that are younger is in February. So they've turned that into like dating domestic violence awareness. Um, but yes, it's incredibly prevalent, and part of the problem is it's through social media. So the bullying's happening as a result of technology. And, you know, it's just happening younger and younger. But mainly what I hear about is gaslighting, where the kids are being gaslighted and bullied by different people at their school. Um, and then I'm hearing of it in romantic relationships younger and younger, just because you know, people are getting into relationships younger and younger, which is just mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

What do you think some signs that parents can look for to see if their son or daughter uh is is being abusive or being abused?

SPEAKER_00 49:43

Well, if they're hiding things, if they're incredibly withdrawn. Um, but yeah, everyone says just to really keep an eye on their technology and see what's going on and just to keep checking in with them.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

So you think parents have a right to check their kids' phones?

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Oh, for sure. If you aren't checking your kids' phones, I think you're a negligent parent.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Come on, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

Yeah, and I haven't had to get there yet because my kids are little. Well, they're not as little anymore. They're 12 and 10. But I told both of them they can't have a phone until they're 14. But unfortunately, my son just got a bark phone because he broke his watch. So he had a little thing that he could like text everyone, um, which is good, and he can only text his friends. But uh yeah, I told him they couldn't have phones until they were 14. I'm like, I told him I said, and I got my ex-husband to agree on it. I was like, I don't care, we're gonna be those parents. Like, you don't need to be talking to people. And it's the same with all the gaming and everything. If you've listened to Sean Ryan or any of the people talk about roadblocks and Minecraft and some of these things, like the predators are coming in through the games. And so again, that comes back to technology and keeping an eye on what your kids are watching and who they're talking to. And and and uh I never thought I'd be this parent because my parents were very overprotective, but my parents have even said they're like, This is a whole different ballgame.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Because your kid could be technically thinking they're talking to like another 11-year-old when they're really talking to a 60-year-old man.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Right, right. That's been happening. As a matter of fact, uh they've been showing up to their houses in all types of things like that.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Well, and then you've got all the witchcraft that's happening as well through the games, and they're causing kids to self-harm themselves. And so that would also be something I'd look out for. Yeah, with your children if you think they're being bullied or abused.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Interesting enough, there's even um have you ever heard of these things called deconstruction groups?

SPEAKER_00 51:42

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

They're huge where they're teaching kids how to protect themselves against their parents' faith and prayer and they're indoctrination and all that stuff. Um, you know, one of my and and one of the reasons I don't know why I'm seeing this, but uh, I think this conversation is actually gonna be seen by a lot of people in the college age because that's where a lot of abuse happens as well. Yes, sororities and fraternities, and there's like this culture that you have to accept, you know, this because we're free and young and we can do this, these things are just gonna happen. Um and and I think that people honestly uh one, I think that people need to know if something's happening, especially against your will and you're being abused, you know, please, please, please ask for help. Uh, and and but if you're in a relationship where you're being abused, uh definitely don't stay there, like get help that you need. Um, I I would like to ask you this because I think it it it's it's also very important. I know we're running out of time, and I can talk to you forever. Uh but but I I I would have to ask you this because you know, when when do you know that you've truly became new? You've truly for forgiveness healing process has actually happened.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

So good.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

Um I just know that he chased me down.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

And that he showed up in my house in 2018, and I've never been the same.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

Yeah, it's him and it's his love. It's his love. I remember feeling that way, and the it's the same answer. That he he he I tell people all the time, it was like uh they always show the house burning and the man carrying the woman. Like, no, that's God carrying me. That's right. That's that's what it's like because um I do believe that the scripture does give us this massive nuggets to kill the flesh daily, and I think that's where all those memories and everything that and the shame, all that stuff stored in the in the you know, it's always trying to remind you. It's like let me remind you who God says I am, let me remind you of the love of Christ, and I don't have to feel uh this way anymore. I don't have to to feel that anyway. And so I just uh I realize that part of the confusion is uh this one the idea of independence. Uh we're always like, I'm supposed to be independent, and that doesn't line up anywhere in scripture. We're supposed to be what I call interdependent, where where we depend on God and we we depend on those that God has sent into our lives, that that's okay, that that's okay, it's okay to say, God, I need you. Yeah, God's not gonna say sit back and go, let me see you figure it out. God wants to see us depend on him. Yeah, he's always there, and I remember thinking, I don't want to bother you with this, Lord, I don't want to bother you with that, Lord, you know, and uh and and and and we end up actually creating more of a mess thinking like that. But I just noticed that uh at 47 years old, that with God I get to stay a child, I get to run to it. I get to be that five-year-old little boy running, save me! Say, get me out of here, and he and he does, and he and he he really does, he really does. Uh, and and and I I thank God for that. Well, listen, if uh we we we are running out of time, and and uh I want everybody to check out heatherbyshore.com. Um, I'm hoping this is not the last time that we do an interview because this is a really big conversation that we're having. So I'd love for everybody to be a part of this uh conversation because uh you know, I tell everybody, you know, that when we have good conversations like this, well, you're stuck with me now. I love it. Because there's there's there's a lot of people that that need this. Um, and I'm gonna show you guys the the website again. Is there anything that you want the people to know?

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Oh gosh. That you know, when you get to a point in life where you have nothing and Jesus is all you have, that's a great place to be.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

That's good. And listen, guys, I know when you hear words like healing and deliverance, and you're like, I don't want to be a weird Christian. I tell everybody, if you know, you don't, first of all, guess what? You don't get to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, walked on water, fed 5,000 with two loaves and five fish, and raised from the dead and not be weird. We're weird people. You know, you don't get to believe that and not be weird. So, you know, if but when it comes to your life, value yourself enough to get and thank you for for encouraging uh therapy. I want to see the relationship between churches and therapists heal and and absolutely uh pastors don't be discouraged by that. And I want to encourage anyone who uh is in the healing and deliverance ministry, you know, you know, tell people about Heather, uh tell people about uh, you know, her websites. It's HeatherV Shore.com. And uh be good to each other out there, guys. Make sure you uh take time to pray for one another because you never know what secrets people are holding. And uh so if you guys if you have friends and family, just constantly pray. You never know what's going on behind closed doors. That's right. Uh and so really be there for each other. Anyway, uh, we are out of time. I'm gonna stop talking. I love you guys. Be good to each other out there.