SPEAKER_02 0:07

Renee Von Runkel is a mother, daughter, sister, wife, grandmother, and employee, but also served thirty-six months in federal prison after a life shaped by unresolved trauma, anxiety, and stress. Incarceration became a turning point in her life, forcing her to confront her past and develop resilience, all while meeting Jesus in jail. She now uses her experience to help others advocate for systematic change and support rehabilitation before and after incarceration through her organization called Connecting to Cope. Connecting to Cope helps with self-care, coping skills, and empowerment for individuals navigating personal struggles, trauma, or challenges of life after incarceration.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Welcome to the Pursuing Redemption Podcast, with Heather Short.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Thank you so much for having me. Um I've been looking forward to this for a while, and I'm happy to share my story with your listeners.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

I am excited. So tell us a little bit about your story of coming to know Jesus and and growing up.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

So um I think we'll start with the coming to know Jesus part. Okay. Um, so for a long time I believed in God, but I didn't truly believe I was worthy of his grace. And a lot of that came with some of the trauma, my childhood trauma that came along the way. Um and for years I carried shame. Sorry about that, carried shame and guilt and didn't know quite who I was. And because of some words that were said to me after my trauma, I thought of myself as being bad. So how could Jesus love someone like that, correct? And you know, that's a young person speaking, not knowing um, you know, the whole story and and not knowing that I could ever get out of that. But when my life fell apart and I ended up in prison, and I think we'll talk about that a little bit later, um, I didn't have anywhere else to run. Um there were no distractions, but of course the people around me. And uh I was forced to sit face to face with what happened to me, um, my choices, my shame, uh, the damage that had been done to my life and through my actions. And really that was the beginning of healing for me, and also the beginning of really getting to know Jesus and knowing that he loved me and knowing that even at my worst moment he loved me. I did not have to be perfect for him to save me. I just had to let him come into my life and into my heart. And that in itself was a huge revelation. And I I thank my time in prison for that because I finally know who's always got my back. And I know that again, I don't have to be perfect and I don't have to pretend I'm somebody else for him to love me. And that is amazing.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

So it is amazing. Uh, can you explain some of what you went through in childhood and how this impacted the beginning of your journey?

SPEAKER_01 3:51

I can.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Um, as a as a young, like a preteen, um, I experienced sexual abuse, and um most of it was a one-time situation. Um, there were some other things that happened along the way as well, but I was assaulted um by some boys that were in my hometown. I lived in a tiny town in southwest Minnesota, and everybody knew everybody. You know, it's a kind of town where your parents knew what you were doing before you got home because someone called them. So that's exactly the kind of community that I lived in. And so the boys who assaulted me, I trusted. They're a little bit older than me, but I had known them my whole life. And that really led me to not trust anybody. And also led me not to trust myself because I felt I was silly enough to go along with them. And that wasn't right away. You know, I was too young to really think that. But then as I got older and I looked back, that is something that really came into place. Along with that, and because of my trauma at that age, I became someone who constantly, and I mean constantly tried to people please and earn approval. I ignored myself, I buried my own emotions, and I put everybody else in front of me. Um, you know, I was carrying fear, shame, confusion, and most of all that trauma that was not resolved. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

So I'm sure that led to, you know, a lot of different decisions.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

It did, you know, and looking back now, I understand that untreated trauma can shape anybody's life, right? Um, and there's so many people out there who haven't dealt with their trauma, you know, people from young kids all the way up to older people. And that is what I did when I was in prison, is I know you're never supposed to make a deal with the Lord, but I did. And I said, if he helped me get through what I was getting through, that I promised that I would try to help people who were like me and try to make it so they never had to go through exactly what I went through. And that and and that is what we kind of did. He said, okay, but and and I've held my end of it, and he's held his end of it. So we're pretty good because he's always by my side. And um, like I say, I I have developed a company, and I know we'll talk about that a little bit later. Um, that is so the the sole purpose of it is really to help people heal and also to fight some inequalities in our criminal justice system. But we'll get into that a little bit later.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So um speaking of some of that, tell us about connect to or connecting to cope. Like, how do you work with people to really see change in their everyday lives?

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Um well, first of all, uh the the first thing that I always want the people that I speak to, even if they don't come and talk to me on a professional level, even if it's just the phone call, that is that they are not alone. And I try to feel them out. I don't base everything on a religious, uh, a religion basis because some of the people I want to help, and if and if they don't like the fact that I'm a Christian, if they are a different religion, I can refer them to someone else. But sometimes that doesn't matter. You know, it's just the human connection, thus the connecting to cope, right? Um, connecting to cope is actually named after my dog. Um, I had my dog name before I had my company, and when I was in prison, I also told my husband that um I was going to get a dog and his name was going to be cope, and because he was going to be my biggest coping skill. And um so connecting to cope, the name came from Cope. And just because by connecting to him and by finding something that I could lean on, you know, without any repercussions and any judgment except for an occasional side eye, um I could uh I could depend on him. So that is really where connecting to Cope came from. But um the people that I try to help, you know, they deal with trauma from abuse, from incarceration. Um, I talk to people now who have caregiver stress, and that's such a huge thing in our country right now because of the changing demographic of our population. Um, you know, I try to stay informed about different things um within the trauma treatment world, though I am a peer advocate, not a counselor of any kind. Um and I also tried to stay rooted in that human connection, thus the connecting to cope thing. Um, you know, but healing isn't just talking about pain. And I try to tell them that too. It's learning our boundaries. Boundaries are a huge part of healing. Um, you know, we learn good coping skills and we go through that. Uh, emotional regulation, you know, controlling what comes out of your mouth, what is in your brain, um, the different things that that we can do to choose the good path and the not so good path. And um, you know, it was my choices. Um, and I made choices, obviously, that led to consequences that led me to prison. So we talk about choices a lot. And um, I take full responsibility for my choices. Sure. And um that that led me to prison. And that's something that we talk about too when I'm talking to people through connecting to cope, is that we can make, you know, some choices are made for us, right? Like a trauma situation, that choice was made for me. But how I reacted to that is my choice. Sure. And so we really do a lot with that. Um, you know, I really try to talk about prayer as a coping skill and meditation as a coping skill, and just time alone is a coping skill. Um, and also taking accountability, which again was very important in my healing, taking accountability for my portion of what happened. Because yes, I was abused, I was assaulted. That that is part of my story, but the choices that I made afterwards were totally mine. And even if they were unconscious or conscious or whatever we want to say, they still were my choices and they led to me hurting people, which again, I take full accountability for. And that's a really tough rotaho. And that is where things like grace come in. And I have many people who have given me a huge amount of grace, some people who haven't, and that's okay. Um, I I can't change what they do, I can only control what I do, and I understand that I did hurt them and I did lose their trust. So that is also something that I can talk to people about, is that, you know, you we we broke a bridge, right? And it's really hard to mend that bridge because you know, what what side are you gonna start from? Who's gonna do the middle? Um, you know, two people come so far, but it's really hard to get that middle together of the bridge. And so we talked a lot about that too, because I'm still living that in my own world. So I can use real life situations when I'm talking. So that it is that that's it. So did I answer your question? You did. I think that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

So can you tell us a little bit about your time in prison and what led you to serving in prison?

SPEAKER_01 11:41

You know, I um like I told you before, I made choices that led to consequences that led to punishment. And that punishment was prison time. And, you know, I had spent years living disconnected, you know, for myself emotionally and more importantly, spiritually. So I did not have that accountability to the Lord that I have today. Sure. And my prison time of 51 months was due to a charge called wire fraud. Or excuse me, mail, I got charged with mail fraud. Sorry, I should know that, right? But I always say wire fraud because that's like the big deal now. And I talk to so many people about it. Mine was not done over the computer, it had nothing to do with my computer. Um, mine was actually one check that came through the mail for a payment. Um, and I had gotten into some ticket brokering, okay, you know, 20 years ago. And everything I did was legal and upfront until I got involved with a different group. Um, but of course, there were the bright, shiny prizes in front of me. And again, I take total responsibility for wanting those bright, shiny prizes, the money, the people pleasing, you know, that all came into play because then I could do things for people that other people couldn't. And so that led to my own addiction. And I did that, that was good for a little bit until it wasn't good. And then I figured out what they were doing, which was selling more tickets than they had, and then paying people back and never having the ability to get the ticket. And so they were basically running a small Ponzi scheme, which is what I ended up doing too, because I was paying people back. Now, my prosecutor told me I was not committing a crime until I tried to fix it myself. So, what I did personally, anyway, because I was going through them, so I just would have been an accessory. Um, but because I broke off from them and then I tried to fix it on my own, that's what women do, that's what people pleasers do, that's what we do. Um, I tried to fix it on my own, and um, that is when my illegal activities began. And I turned myself in and told them what I did, and they didn't really know what my charge was going to be because they couldn't like look and say, okay, Renee took this amount of money from these amount of people because most of them were paid back. Um, but they did find the one male fraud charge that they could charge me with, and that is what I ended up with. And and again, you know, I look back at it at that time and not knowing. It was about three and a half years of not knowing from the time I turned myself into the time um that I went to prison, it was between three and a half and four years. And that was probably the most difficult because I knew I had done something wrong, but I didn't know where I was going to get charged on the state level and the federal level and where those things were. And looking back, you know, hindsight's 2020, if I would have had the grace of God and that spiritual shoulder to lean on at that time, I would have known a lot more what to do and how to do it. But I did not. And luckily, my husband and my kids stood by me. And so that's that that's what led me to prison. And I told you what happened while I was in prison. I had to face myself for the first time and started my healing process, and that's where I am right now. I'm still healing. Yeah, yeah. I'm not in prison anymore. Thank goodness, not for six years. I've been out for six years, so that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Wow. Was it you? Or it might have been someone else I was listening to was like, we're all two steps away from going to jail, just based on our decisions every day.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Well, and I have said that before is that, you know, we are a good choice. We yeah, yeah, we are a good choice or a bad choice, you know, just a bad choice away from going to prison. And I found that out when I was in prison for you know, the reason some people were in there. And I was like, oh my goodness, like little grandmas who had allowed their grandchildren to rent their house and then run a drug business out of it. So they were harboring them. And I didn't even know that.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Yep, yep. Yeah, yeah, different kinds of things that you know that that people again were incarcerated for. And, you know, that's one thing about prison that I always tell everyone, it's not like what you see on TV. Um, Orange is the new black is very close, at least the first season. Um, I think they kind of made it a little bit more dramatic. Not that prison can't be dramatic because it can be, especially with 500 women all living together. So that will happen occasionally. Oh my word. But the first season of Orange is the new black is very close. But um really the women that you live with, you get a family of women, like in your own little area. And I am still they they're still my best friends. They saw you at your darkest, they took you for your worst, and they are still your friends and they still love you in or out. And it is an amazing thing, and um very thankful for those friendships that I built and that sisterhood that I built.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

So you know, probably a lot of people wouldn't even think about that or say that. That's really neat to hear.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Yeah, yeah, it is, it is because you know, as someone told me before I went to prison when I was really down on myself a day, um some sins are public and some sins are private. And we all sin every day. And that is so true. And something that I really live by now are two things. I may not like your sin, but I'm gonna love the sinner because I I can't I I can't choose that for anybody, and we all sin. So I may not, you know, like your actions today, but I always love you. And you know, that is a fellow, a fellow Christian and a fellow person of God, and that's just what we do because he may not like what we do, but he always loves us, right? Yeah, yep. And also instead of saying, Oh my goodness, what did they do? Now I say, why did they do that? And because there's usually if someone does make a poor choice and it's a public poor choice, you can look at that poor choice and you can probably figure out that there was something in their background or their past or something that was not resolved, you know, a bad marriage, a um, you know, childhood neglect, um, abuse. So many women and men now are getting abused and assaulted. Um, you know, PTSD of any kind. And it is just that that's what I do now. And my husband always laughs at me because he said, you know, you always do say that now. You're always like, oh my goodness, I wonder what happened to make them do that.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

And so I try to dig more into it instead of just judging them because I am not their judge and jury.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

So that's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Though I am a jury this week, but other than that, it's all good.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Right. Jury duty. It gets us.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Yes, jury duty.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about how to hold on to a marriage in extreme circumstances? You know, people go to prison, a lot of people don't make it as married couples. So I think it's amazing that you guys made it and you're you're still married, and that's quite a time.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Yeah. We we love each other every day. We don't always like each other after 39 years, but um but but there's a lot of days where we do like each other again, too. So that's a thing, you know? Yeah. Well, first of all, prison impacts all parts of your life, obviously, right? You're away. Um, all your friendships, all your connections at home, they are gone. And something that you need to let go of while you're in prison is the outside because you have no control over what your spouse does, over what your kids do, over what your friends do. And so I think that has given me a huge insight into you know the line that the only person I can control is me. Yeah. And so that's how I look at our marriage. How I react to Kevin is probably going to make him react to me, right? And he has also started that as well. Like if he is in a bare mood and a berry mood, he's a little crabby, a little cranky. And if he barks at me a little bit, I tend to bark back.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

And but yet if he just says, I'm in a bad mood today, you know, I'm off yet this morning, can we just not discuss that now? I'll be like, okay. And so really what it does is it makes you realize what you have. And while you're in person, of course, it tests everything. Um and believe it or not, there were moments where it would have been easier for me to walk away to than to face what I was gonna have to face when I get home and go through all the work of getting back together. And, you know, some days I just thought I'd much rather be alone. I did this alone, I can do the rest of my life alone. So, you know, what am I doing here? But then both of us talked about the fact that we both were coming closer to God and that I think you have to do everything you can to keep your marriage together. Now, all marriages don't stay together, and I believe that that is also a God thing. I mean, if someone is being hurt emotionally, physically, spiritually, um, whatever, you know, he separates people because first and foremost, you're his child. So that's why I think divorce is there. It's not that I don't believe in divorce, it's just Kevin and I really do like each other and we have common goals and common morals, and we have two wonderful sons. And what we really did was face the our painful realities. You know, healing wasn't just about me being in prison, or it wasn't going to be magically better when I got home. It was about rebuilding trust and rebuilding our identities on both ends. Um, Kevin was very much, what is that word? And I talk about it all the time to my people, but it's like he kind of fed off me because I am the more boisterous of the two of us. Okay. Yeah, that's that's kind of it. And he didn't want to do a lot without me. I mean, I had my friends, my work, and he had a great job and a great career too. But it's just on his private time, he wanted to do stuff with me and me only. And so if I would go away, then he would just stay home and that would lead to tension and different things. Well, when I was gone, he did rebuild his identity. And I'm so proud of him. Um, he he does his own thing now, he's got his own interests. And, you know, if his friends call and say, Do you want to go to the races on Tuesday night? He'll say, Yes, let's go. And um that that's a good thing. You know, our time apart is still a good thing. Um, and again, we talked about grace a little while ago. And I think that people underestimate the importance of grace in any relationship, friendship, but especially marriage. Yeah you know, and it's not like you pretend things didn't happen or that the harm didn't happen, but you choose to work through it together and honestly. And it takes time and it takes growth, and yeah, because marriage isn't it it's not put together through perfect circ circumstances, and no one has to be perfect, it just takes commitment, humility, and forgiveness. So that's what we try to do most days.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

I love it though. I mean, that's just a walking testimony of what's possible if you forgive and you're humble and you walk with Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Most certainly, and also, you know, taking accountability for your own actions and healing, and you know, doing your own work on your healing. And my husband had some too. I'm not gonna go into because that's his story. But he had some own some of his own healing to do while I was gone, and we both decided that we needed to get rid of those ghosts, and it yeah, our relationship is is very good today, and it's a work in progress because it always is, yeah, but um, it's a good thing, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

I love it, I love hearing that. How do you feel like you help people with healing and coming out of the other side of darkness or out on the other side of darkness?

SPEAKER_01 24:23

You know, I think so many people that are dealing with addiction or abuse or trauma or fear or what whatever it is, pretend they're okay, right? Don't we all, I mean, we all put on a good face and we uh we all I was living proof of it, right? I was in, I was busy all the time because I didn't want to face myself. So if I was busy, then I didn't have to look at myself in the mirror and think about anything because I'd be exhausted when I got home, you know, pre pre present pre you know, turning myself in. Um, and by the way, I didn't, I don't know if I told you that, but I did turn myself in for my for my crime. I couldn't take it anymore. Yeah, yeah, and I couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror anymore. So I turned myself in and um everything they found me on was on my computer that I gave them. They didn't even have to get a warrant or a subpoena. Um, I just gave it to them and I was never arrested, which is just so weird. My guards used to tease me. And I guess I never thought about it until they they made it known to me. And they're like, Vinrukel. And I'd be yeah, because they never called you by your first name. They'd say Vin Rukel. I'd be like, yeah. They'd be like, you were never arrested, you were never indicted, you were never put in handcuffs. Why are you here? Um, it's not for the pleasure of it, sir, but it is indeed for the fact that I committed a crime. But there are some really good people that wanted to help you and wanted to see you get out while you were in. And, you know, that leads back to what we were just talking about is helping people with healing. And there were a lot of good people in prison who wanted you to know that you were not in your journey alone. And, you know, whether you chose them to be your, you know, shoulder to cry on, um, I became closer to Jesus when I was in prison, closer to God, closer to my spirituality. But I also had a couple really good people who helped me there. And I cannot even pretend to be as good as some of they were, they, you know, as they were, but they taught me things like grounding skills and emotional regulation, things we talked about before, how to communicate, um, you know, not um to to be assertive in your communication, but not to be aggressive. Yeah. Um, and also to know that healing is not on anyone else's timeline but yours. And it's also not linear. You know, there's gonna be setbacks, there's gonna be hard days, and there's gonna be steps forward and steps back, but every step towards healing and towards being honest with yourself and honest with others is going to be a step that matters, you know, and you can survive darkness and you can still become someone who helps bring light to others. And that's what I try to tell myself when I'm having a bad day. Yeah. And that again, God doesn't see me as my worst offense, He sees me as a whole, imperfect, beautiful person. And that's what I try to remind others of too. That, you know, you're not going to just say, okay, I'm gonna get healed, and in 30 days it's all gonna be done. I'm sorry. That's not going to happen. It could take you 30 years to completely heal, and you may never completely heal. Um, you may just be on that road to healing, which in turn is a huge step and should make anybody who's on that road very proud of themselves for doing the work because that's what it takes.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Amen. I know that you've mentioned this a couple of times where you're saying that like just having to sit in prison, you know, that you had to face everything, and that's where you really met God. But how do you feel like Jesus helped you through this whole journey? Or maybe it's just it gave you a different filter of how to view people.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Well, that's all part of it. You know, that's all part of it. Um, you know, the little bands that we used to wear and the what would Jesus do thing is something that is in my head all the time. And again, that's why I think now when someone does something that is a poor, you know, that is it's the it's because of a poor choice and lack of better terms. I was gonna say something different. But really, you know, there it's because of a poor choice. I don't like the word bad, um, but it's it's because of a poor choice or an unhealthy choice or whatever word we want to use. Um, I now say, you know, what happened to them to make them make that choice, right? But I think at the end of it, you know, Jesus gave me hope when I felt completely hopeless. You know, I didn't have an identity. My only identity is that I was so ashamed of myself, so ashamed of what I did, and also ashamed of myself for what happened to me. Sure. And I think I've said it before too. You know, he reminded me that my worst mistake was not the end of my story, and it was not my whole story. And the only person who could prove that was me. You know, he wasn't gonna do the work for me. He would tell me, you are not the worst thing you ever did, but I can't do this for you. So you are going to have to go out and do this. Plus, we made a deal that you were gonna help people if I got you through this prison stuff. So, um, you know, there were times I felt overwhelmed by guilt and grief and fear and regret, you know, for what I did and, you know, what I thought I ruined. But I just know that my faith keeps me moving on one day at a time. And redemption is real, but so is accountability. Accountability to the sins that I committed today, accountability to the sins that I committed 15, 16 years ago. And I have asked for forgiveness and I have been forgiven, but that never gives me the right to go back and you know, rehash one of those sins. Not that I won't ever, because ever is a really, really long time. Um, but I'm gonna work hard every day not to do those things and not to repeat them.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

So speaking of redemption, if you could tell someone to pursue redemption and chase after Jesus, what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 30:45

You know, I think the first thing is something that I had to learn. And that's I think no matter what they've done, no matter what has happened to them, no matter what they've been through, um, they are not beyond redemption. If you truly give your heart to the Lord, if you truly take Jesus into your heart, He will forgive you and work with you and be there all the time. You know, it's the shame in us that tells us to hide from the things that are happening. And I think it's the faith that tells us that healing is possible. You know, you know, the devil wants people to believe that you know they are too far gone to be forgiven. And that is so not true. So if you are in a dark spot, don't think that you cannot be forgiven. And if you're not there today, then let's talk about it. You know, let's see where you're at, let's move forward a little bit and you know, see what we can do to, you know, get you to start healing and start taking the joy of forgiveness into your heart. And that's going to start changing your life a lot. And again, like I also say, you know, do the work, be accountable for what you've done and stay open to healing because it's going to be uncomfortable and it's going to be hard. But, you know, your past is not your whole story, and it does not have to define the rest of your life. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Wonderful. Well, can you tell everyone where to find you online?

SPEAKER_01 32:23

I can. I can. Um, my company again is called Connecting to the Cope, and it's named after my wonderful golden doodle. And if you go to www.connectingtocope.com and that's all spelt out, um, you can see me. Um, I'm not quite as tired of looking on the pictures on my website, but I've been driving all day for all your listeners. So um, but was so excited to do this podcast. So um you can go on there and you can see my my handsome dog Cope, and you can find out a little bit more about what I do and also a little bit more about um my justice reform work that I do as well.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

So well, wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Renee, for coming on today. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

Well, I'm so glad to be here, and um yeah, if your listeners have any questions, um, you know, have them get a hold of me on my website. I'm also on Facebook, and um, I'd be glad to answer any questions. So thank you so much, everyone.

SPEAKER_04 33:23

Get it better, goes away. Here I am all right, get it bad and closer in the store. Here I am gluser in the store, give you a closer in the store, just into the rhythm luxury