SPEAKER_02 0:08

Dennis Von der Berg is pastor and leader of Five Crowns International Ministries. Five Crowns is called to go to all the nations and show that Jesus is still Jesus. We're excited to have Dennis back on the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Welcome to the Pursuing Redemption Podcast with Heather Shore.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Thank you, Dennis, for coming on the Pursuing Redemption Show. We're so excited to have you back. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Yeah, thanks, Heather. It's great to be back on the show and uh yeah, excited about this one.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Yeah, absolutely. So, just for the audience that doesn't know you, tell us a little bit about your journey of coming to know Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Yeah, so my name's Dennis Vunderberg. I'm over here in good old Texas. And um I come to know the Lord um October 6, 2011. Um, before that, I grew up more with a religious understanding of Jesus, like um um just make sure the good outweighs the bad and try to go to church every once in a while. Good old boy Christianity, right? Yeah, and um but with that, there was a lot of things happening in my life that I could not explain. Um, what I've what I've come to learn now is what is like spiritual warfare and um just being attacked by by the demonic and all of that. I was experiencing those things and had a lot of questions and no answers, and that ultimately led to me encountering Jesus on this beautiful night in October of 2011 and completely turned my life upside down and in a good way, and just got saved and and filled, uh filled with the Holy Spirit, which was fun because I didn't know the filling of the Holy Spirit was a thing. And so when you run into, you know, in certain circles where they're like, God doesn't do that anymore. It's like, all right, well, I just know what happened to me. You know, I know that I prayed in a language that I had never prayed before in my life and got up was entirely different. And um so so with that, it was it was a beautiful night. Like he he showed up, he he he found me when I was at my worst, and he removed all the hurt, all the pain, all the darkness, and it just like I met him and encountered his love. And when you meet, you have a head-on collision with his love, like you you're not walking away the same from that, and so that changed my heart, obviously, in a really big way, and I had this desire immediately to want to shout from the rooftops of what he had done for me and just who he is. And um, I was running martial arts school at the time, and I literally wrote John 3.16 on my hand because I couldn't memorize it at the time. I didn't know it. So I had like in pen John 3.16 written out on my hand and just blasting my martial arts students, just telling them everything that happened and was trying to read the scripture from my hand and just getting after it, just preaching day one. And um, so it was fun, it was awesome, and then it it ultimately led to me being in ministry and um worked at a at a minist worked in ministry at a at a pretty big church in Texas and worked there uh for uh six years and then um but found my my true passion and calling in um in missionary work in evangelism. And so um God led me to start Five Crowns International Ministries where we were going all over the world, going to the Philippines and India, Kenya, Ireland, and and just anywhere he'd send us, we would go and we'd preach the gospel and seen thousands of people get saved, thousands get healed, thousands get delivered. And yeah, it's it is incredible. And um 2020 COVID came and shut all that down, of course. And um, and so during that time, um during that time I was I was a little bit I wasn't a fan that bars and strip clubs could stay open, but the churches were closed. And so ultimately I I opened a church during that time and um got after it. And so it's uh you know, it's been a it's been a fruitful journey, but it also has been accompanied with with some trials and some adversity, which obviously we're gonna talk about, but ultimately he uh led me to it and through it, and uh we're on the other side of it, and we're you know, we're gonna get back at it, got healed up and and gonna go for it. So yeah, that's that's that's it in a nutshell, basically.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Yeah, great job. So speaking of that, fill us in on your healing journey and sort of the process you've been through the last few years.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yeah, so my healing journey, it it's been physical healing, emotional healing, and spiritual healing. Um so less the first one, physical healing. Um, I blew out my back in 2018. Okay. And had to go through two surgeries. Um, one of my discs completely collapsed and ended up having to have um all kinds of procedures done. I had over a hundred different injections put in my spine. I had all kinds of it was crazy. And so with that, I was um I've been recovering from that, but also the the pain medication. Like they obviously when your back's that jacked up and everything, you they they put you on heavy stuff. And um I also realized I was using uh the medication to not just mask the physical pain, but also the emotional pain I was going through. And so that became a slippery slope, which uh which which ultimately God's given me victory over that. Thank God. Like it's been uh it was the the pain was there was a lot of burning in my legs, my feet and legs. So imagine like walking on hot concrete uh in the summer. It was it was like that, and you couldn't escape it, like there was no shade, it was just my feet were constantly burning and all that. And um, yeah, it was not fun. And um, you know, I you know, days are much better with that, it's not as bad as it used to be. And so ultimately, you know, got set free of all that, but there was there was all of this going on in the mix, not only the emotional and spiritual stuff going on, but the physical as well. Um, but yeah, and then also figuring out I didn't realize this, but a lot of my back pain was also tied to the emotional strain that I was under. And it's yeah, and it's uh like literally just one conversation or or one touch uh from from a person in my life that that unfortunately has has caused some of the hurt, like will literally just trigger the pain immediately. And so realize like, okay, I've got some emotional and spiritual stuff I need to work through. So there was that. And then also um the last three years been um healing and kind of being restored going through uh divorce, um, divorce from an unequally yoked marriage, and uh being being ahead of in ministry, um, going through that, obviously. Um, I knew at the time when everything started to come to a head, I was like, hey, I gotta step back. I've got to, I've got to, you know, I gotta focus on this, I gotta get right and get healed. And um, so that was that's obviously that's the biggest one. And then also needed to go through some spiritual healing from some emotional and religious abuse that had happened, which sadly happens a lot, and there's a ton of people going through it, unfortunately. So hopefully me um saying, you know, all this stuff, it's not pretty, it's it's ugly, it's it's not not a fun deal, but um, God's got me on the other side of it. So hopefully um the things that I've gone through and the things that God has shown me, hopefully we can help the next person that unfortunately, if they're going through this, that we can we can help them out a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Absolutely. So maybe talk to that just a little bit. Can you share your testimony of just being a man walking through emotional abuse? A lot of men don't talk about this, and and I think it's way more prevalent than we realize.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

So especially in the church, like so many people are walking through this.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah, so so the big thing, like when it comes to religious abuse, you know, we we have that word out right now, church hurt. And and it's a very it's a real thing, you know, and you have people on both sides of the aisle where um the church hurts almost become their identity, and uh, other people are like suck it up, get over it. And we got to find that middle line. We got to find the the right balance in it because it is a real thing. And because the church is supposed to be a place that you can come and say, I'm not okay. Uh, the church is supposed to be the one place you can come in and say, I'm really messed up, I'm really hurting, I'm really jacked up, I need a savior just as much as everybody else does, no matter if you're a leader or you're not. And we should all be loved the exact same, same way. We should love each other as you know, as Jesus does, just Jesus loves the church. Um, so that and also just being a man, it's always, you know, um, don't talk about it. And if you do talk about it, you get hit for it. And so um the religious abuse part, like, you know, the church should ultimately be focused on God's presence and God's people. That's that should be the ultimate aim. We need to be focused on God's presence, what is he saying, what is he doing? You know, what's what's the step for us? And then God's people wake up in the morning, who can I help today? Who am I praying for when I'm preparing a sermon? Like God, who who are you wanting to speak into? That ultimately needs to be the aim. But sadly, what's happening is the church has church will replace presence with programs and people become products.

SPEAKER_04 10:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

And when um so I was in an environment as such, and when you're viewed as a product, love becomes conditional. And when you're not meeting the the status quo, when you're not, you know, our our vision and our mission is to be this and this, and when you start not meeting that expectation, yeah, then you're no longer a person, you're you're a flawed product, and you're not representing the brand correctly. And when you do that, you you know, you you get dealt with, whether um, you know, it can be all kinds of different things. And so I think that's one of the big big issues that I was I was facing is like um the I just wanted to like my thing is I just want to follow Jesus and I want to like I want I want every person to experience the love that I experienced that night and and just being filled with God's presence. And because when God's presence enters the room, everything changes. You know, you don't need a 12-point sermon when his when he enters the room. And the the whole copycat Christianity thing, like what works for one church may not work for another, but we we end up copying. So anyway, we've kind of got this this um this posture in religion, and it's it's a lot of people are getting hurt in the in the crossfire of it all. And so as a man and as a leader, you know, you're trying to you're trying to be a good leader, you're trying to be submitted to the Lord, and you're also trying to follow leadership, which you're supposed to. And you know, one of the big rules there was was follow, uh, follow spiritual leadership within scriptural limits. And I agree with that wholeheartedly, but what happens is is it's based off of their translation of scripture.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

And so sometimes it can it can get a little wonky in that. And um, and so there, there, there was that whole thing issue of of just learning to heal from that. But um, the big key in healing from that was like when when the Lord called me out of that season and into um going into five crowns where I was um leading that, um, I was you know, it was always like an attack on identity when it came to that kind of stuff. And so really having to to really be vulnerable and transparent before the Lord and just God show me who I am. You know, there's I don't want to be this product for this this company, like I want to be your son, I want to be washed by your blood, I want to, I want to be obedient to the Holy Spirit, and I want to walk in step with you. And so one thing is is walking in the step with the Lord, it it's not gonna be walking in step with the world. And sadly, religion is will walk more with the world than they will with Jesus, and so there's there's that. And then when it came to the divorce, um you know, I'll say this right now God hates divorce. Yeah, I I've he hates it, it breaks his heart. And the divorce came as a result from from years of neglect and emotional abuse that led that ultimate ultimately led to me attempting suicide. Um it was two days before New Year's, uh 2022, going into 2023. Um there was a lot of things going on. Um every four to five months, four, ten and a half years, me and my my spouse at the time, we would have to have a a conversation. Um and I had always um I had always suspected that she either hated me or hated God and or was angry at me or angry at God or both. And so there was there was a lot of disconnect. Um and as a as a man, you know, you you you know, you gotta put the you try to put the face on everything's okay. I'm just praying through it, I'm trusting the Lord, it's gonna be okay. And um then I ultimately ended up kind of um um I was trying to protect the whole situation. So I would always pretend that everything was fine. Um, but I kept getting hit in the back.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

And it's like, okay, like I can't, it was just hard to you didn't wave the white flag until it was like almost too late.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Exactly. Like it was, and and I had tried talking to a few people. Um, I mean, a few people. I tried to talk to I tried to talk to many men about it.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

And I even had some like I just some we've had some conversations around this, but that's what's really sad is that you tried to talk to different men in church settings and they just rushed it off.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Yeah, and uh like some made sexual jokes about it, and these were you know prominent leaders in the church that everybody would, you know, everybody uh you know, um everybody loves and respects. And um, and when I came to them saying, hey, I'm really struggling with this, all they had were you know little sexual remarks and jokes and all that. And um it was like, you know, how how do you get help from that? And then also at the same time, when trying to have a conversation with my spouse at the time, saying, like, hey, these are these are concerns I'm genuinely having. Now, first things first, what what can I do to be a better husband? I every single time, as the Lord is my witness, I would always like, hey, what can I do better? How can I be a better husband? Am I speaking your love languages right? Like, you know, what what can I do? And it was always the same, you know, you're you're fine. It's okay. I'm like, are you sure? Like, if do you are you still attracted to me? Like, do I need to go work out more? Do I need to get more buff? Like my hairline's receding a little bit. Do I need to handle that? Like, what do I need to do here?

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Before my divorce, I'd be like, Well, what did I do now?

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

And how much weight does you need to lose to be attracted again? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Yeah. And it was so it was constantly, and so I would um I would ask those things and I would say, okay, well, here's here's the issues that I'm having, and here are the struggles that I'm having, and I really could use your help and your partnership in these things. And it would always get turned around and I would be, I would be the problem. Um, many times it would be uh go talk to somebody else, or it was always, I don't know what to tell you, go talk to somebody else. I'm like, Well, you're my wife. Like, we're supposed to be in this together, and it was like, My problems are not your problems, go talk to somebody else. And then eventually it was like, no, you need you need professional help, you need therapy, you need counseling. Well, I'm friends with all kinds of counselors and therapists and all this stuff. I've I I would put my name in the hat for man with most counseling in the state of Texas. Like, I you know, just and but it's confusing to you because it's like, well, apparently I'm a narcissist, and you know, it's a like I sat down with one of the things, and that's a word that gets thrown around way too much. And the same thing as Jezebel, like they're a Jezebel, they're a narcissist. Little word of advice. If you hear someone using those words, I would start with them first. If they're like that person is a narcissist, that person is a Jezebel, just have your discernment out, start praying immediately. And um, just because somebody says that there's something does not mean that's it at all. And a lot of times people are are judged off of their actions, but you don't realize that their actions are a reaction. And that's one thing that happened with me is my actions got judged, but no one realized it was a reaction. And when all of this that I'm about to tell you became, you know, it unfolded. Um, I didn't I didn't speak up. Like I just like I was too torn up, I was too messed up. Like I was like, if I try to defend myself in this, I'm gonna lose my mind. Like I was so angry, I was so tired, I was so frustrated and sad. Like I was just like, I will like if I speak up, like I will burn this whole thing down. Like it was that just honestly, that's where I was at. Um, but anyway, this this day, um, it happened in the morning, and um it was just I was at the end of myself, like I was the physical pain was at an all-time high, the emotional pain, it was all there. And so I attempted to take my life. I tried to drown myself in my bathtub, and to the point that my body was naturally trying to fight, trying to come to the surface. So I was trying to hit myself in the jaw to try to knock myself out so that way if I just knocked myself unconscious, I could drown. Um that thank God that attempt failed miserably. And I came up out of the water and you know, confused, and um, I was, you know, coughing up water and everything. And I remember I cried out and I I said, God, if there is anybody who gives a crap about me right now, I really need to hear from them. And that was the the the intensity and the heaviness that I was under where I just felt like I was all alone, even though I was leading a ministry, even though like it was all like I was I was in this so-called position, I still felt alone because anytime I tried to talk about anything, like I was there for others, but I really I didn't feel like I had anybody there for me specifically. And that's a that's a scary and lonely place. And sadly, I think that's why we see so many ministers, um, people who are called end up ultimately taking their own life because they feel like death is the only way they can actually be heard. And and that's how I felt. I felt like this is the only way I'm gonna actually be heard, and um and within eight seconds though, within eight seconds, eight to ten seconds of saying that, say God, if there's anybody out there that gives a crap about me, I really need to hear from them. My phone goes off. And it's the woman who's now my wife. And um, we worked together in ministry, we had a friendship, then you know, there's all kinds of stuff about that. And but, you know, I can stand before God and be truthful and honest that we had a a friendly professional relationship leading up to all that and everything. And she she texted me and just said, Are you okay? And I text back, nope, I am not okay. And she ended up saving my life that day. And because my next move was I knew where the pistol was, and I was like, and she she saved my life that day. And I tried to the later, a few days later, um, my my spouse at the time was was out of town, and when she came back into town, um, I waited for the evening to tell her everything that happened. Like I already communicated like, Hey, there's a lot of bad things happened this morning, um, and we really need to talk about it. It's it's it's rough. It's And when I finally when we finally sat down and I communicated with her all the things that had happened, and uh I told her, I said, and I I I did, I tried to take my own life and I waited, needed to see what what her response was going to be. And her response was okay. And that was it. And I was like, that's it. And she was well, what do you want me to say? And I was and to me it was it was a breaking point. Now I'm I'm leaving out a lot of I'm leaving out 10 and a half years worth of of struggle.

SPEAKER_04 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

And it ultimately came in it, it was like, okay, like I'm I'm waving the white flag here saying, look, I am in desperate need of help, and you are my spouse, and I'm coming to you saying, look, like I am, I am broken. And we're at the end of your rope. Like what's that?

SPEAKER_02 23:06

You're at the end of your rope.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

So that's just ridiculous. Her response was just it was hard.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

And it it led to me saying, Okay, like I can't I can't do this anymore. Like, I can't keep doing all this. And like I just, I was like, I have nothing left to give. And so with that, a lot of drama unfolded. And um uh I I literally fought to the death for this marriage. And um, and I know that the Lord released me from this marriage because God cares about the individual. And and we've got so much stuff about we don't we don't talk uh the church doesn't talk a lot about unequally yoked relationships. Um it's more just suck it up, buttercup, get over it. And then some are are you know trigger happy, they want to divorce at you know the slightest um you know slightest bit of inconvenience, and it's not that it's but when when two hearts are actually working against each other and one is hostile towards God, it's like and it's tearing the other person apart, like, yeah, I believe God wants to step in and intervene. Yeah, and um, and so we go ahead and Corinthians 7 15, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:25

If the unbeliever tries to leave, it is better for to let them leave and live in peace. Yeah, and a lot of people misquote that one too.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Exactly. Yeah, and uh we uh I stepped back from ministry during all that, and there was there was a lot of there was a lot of drama happening with that. Some people um within the ranks just wanted to use that as an opportunity to take over the ministry, and so that it ended up becoming a mess of its own. Like I could spend five hours on all that mess, but I'm not gonna go there. And um, but so we we went to a counseling deal, and um her and I had the understanding, like, hey, this is the thing that's gonna make her break us. Like, we really need to, you know, we need to. This is a counselor we both agreed on. Um, and we're like, you know, and because I've been to counseling a lot, and anytime I would ever ask, like, hey, will you go? Like, or we'll go together, we'll do and it was never no. You want to read the Bible together? No. You want to pray together? No. Let's go to church together, no. And so I I was like, I was like, okay, we're finally getting to sit down with a counselor and and try to try to see what what can happen. And so three things happened during that during that meeting that I felt like the Lord showed me like it's it's it's time. And the first thing was like we sat down and the the counselor, like, he already had an idea of what was happening, but he was like, All right, um, so um, what brings y'all in today? And she just looks over at me and points at me and just said, He's the problem. And I was like, So there no willingness to to share responsibility. And that's one of the big things I've been accused of is like you you're escaping your sin. And you and also the big thing was when I confessed to people that I had attempted suicide, um, there was a group of people shouting, no, you didn't. You're just you're just using that to trying to cover up your sin. You just don't want to take responsibility for your actions. So you're claiming that you did this so that you can um so that we can all feel sorry for you. And so the one the time I actually reach out for help, it was just the most brutal beating I had ever gotten in my life. And so, yeah, I I completely locked up. Like I would not talk to anybody after that. And it took seven months for me to even like actually start going out in public and talking to people.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Wow. Yeah, it was after that counseling session. Like there was those three things that happened during the counseling session where you're like, Okay, God, I really am released from this marriage.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Yeah, so it was one, he's the problem. So it showed me there was no willingness to share responsibility. Also, the one, um, so I had I had thought for years, discerned for years, like, okay, she's she's resenting me, she's she's angry at me, she's angry at God, like something. And I would ask that, like, hey, like, I can't help you fix the problem if we don't know what it is. Like, just talk to me. Like, I'm a man, like, I'm not a perfect man, but I will, man, I will try. And so finally, during that session, um, she had said, I've resented him and God ever since he got saved. And so for 10 and a half years of of knowing this and her saying, No, you're crazy, no, you're making that up, no, you have no idea what you're talking about. Um, so it was I've hated you and God ever since you got saved, and that that was like for better or for worse, you know, to have and to hold. Like the I just felt like the marriage vows had completely just been shattered and broken in that moment. And and also just withholding love and affection, and like you know, my my love language, I'm a physical touch guy, and like like I'm like just just a pat on the shoulder every once in a while. I'll be good, like just you know, something, you know, just give me understand that.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

And yeah, also, can we talk about this for one second? This probably put on a tiny bit, but like the church doesn't talk about that either. Like when you know, a spouse is withholding affection, what that does to a marriage, and what messes them up to a spouse, yeah. I mean, I personally left my marriage going, what is literally wrong with me that I can't even get a hug or a kiss? You know, I was like, What what did I do? I kept thinking I'm the problem, yeah, because you won't even give me a hug. Like that it just truly messes messes with your head. It really it does.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Yeah, yeah. And that was um like some of the some of the men who were really um judgmental in this, they were leaders that they have a uh 2448-72 rule. Okay. And I remember their their ruling, they were talking to me about it um back when I worked with them, and they were like, so what are you, Dennis? Are you 2448 or 72 guy? I'm like, what does that mean? Like, well, do you need do you need sex every 24 hours, every 48 hours, or every 72 hours? I'm like, what does that have to do with anything? And what they told me was that they they pretty much demand their spouse to to to um to fulfill their marital code to whatever, every whatever that desire is so that they don't fall into sin. And so I am not joking you. So I'm like, I'm floored by this. I'm like, so you're telling me that no matter how your wife feels, that because you can't control your urges after 48 hours, you demand your wife to service you because you can't keep your crap together after 48 hours. And so, like, and I know like these are the the men who are sitting there saying, throwing their judgment around. And I'm asking them, like, well, what are you doing to, you know, if you're a 24-hour guy, what are you doing to become a 48-hour guy? Like, what are you doing to get your to get your flesh into submission? Yeah, so that you don't treat your wife like a slave, so that y'all's union and your intimacy is actually a union and intimacy, not here's our 48-hour checklist.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

So that and like and I hope they've repented of that and changed that in Florida right now, because doesn't that also lead to rape?

SPEAKER_01 31:19

It's I mean, pretty much it is, and there's there's been some issues since then, and and so that's the hard part is like I've I know that that's how these guys are in their marriages.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

But then they're they're getting on to you about the fact you aren't getting any affection at all. Yeah, you know, you're being neglected and emotionally abused, and that you've made up some story, but yet they're doing this in their own marriages, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:46

And so it was a it was definitely a very frustrating thing. And um yeah, and then the the third and final thing was um the last thing that in the in that session was uh when she said, I always thought God and Dennis would always be around, so why bother putting in the effort? And I was like, So you never you never put in effort, and she had, no, not really. And which I knew that, like the action spoke, but for her to just up and say, like, yeah, I didn't try. And I literally tried to the point of death, like I was like, okay. And so anyway, after after that, um after that counseling session, um, she ended up going forward and and filing for divorce. And it was, and it's been, you know, a three-year healing process of that. And of course, when you're a ministry leader in a town and you don't you don't tell your side of the story, there's like 20 different versions of the story that happened. And I've heard a few of them. I'm like almost like got popcorn in my hand, like, and and then what happened? My gosh, you know, and um, and so was I perfect in the deal? No, absolutely not. I was hurt. I was you know, I made decisions that I I wouldn't make today, but ultimately I know that I was in a relationship that um that was not helpful, it was it was hurtful, um, and it was not equally yoked. Like I it was there were times I had to choose between being obedient to Christ or to satisfy the marriage and the conditions that were set. And I there were times that I caved in and I was like, okay, well, I'll I'll take a hit for the team, like I'll and uh do things that I know God didn't want me doing, um, just so I could kind of keep the peace in the marriage. And so, but wow, through all that, God brought me somebody who like now I know what an equally yoked marriage is, and it is the most amazing thing ever. She is incredible and she is a fighter, and I love it. So, you know, we'll talk more about her in a bit, but yeah, that's that's that's what happened.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

And you have a baby on the way.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

I got a baby on the way, I do. So yeah, it's exciting. It is, it it really is. So we're we're happy. Like it's been it's been a hard road, it's been a hard fight. There's still like all the stuff that we're you know, we're still battling all kinds of things, just financially, spiritually, all of that. But we are um her and I are stepping back into ministry, and we're um we're not running, we're actually going back to the town that all this happened in, and we're we're gonna take back what uh what Satan took, and uh yeah, we're not taking no for an answer. So yeah, should be interesting to say the least.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

So can you tell us a little bit about um well, I mean, you really have spoken to it, like how God has shown you grace, mercy, and compassion through all of this. Um but I guess how do you feel like God is speaking to you now, like in light of what's going on to in your life now, and and where do you sense sort of God taking us as a nation? Yeah, so let's sort of combine those questions together.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Yeah, no, that's I th that's that's great. I love that. And so throughout the three years, you know, you you get hit with people who are like, you made the wrong call, you made the wrong choice, you you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. And um, and so there was three different times that I did these 40-day fasts or 40-day challenges. I didn't just cut out food altogether, um, but I made significant sacrifices on these 40 days so that I could make sure I was in lockstep with the Lord. Yeah. Um, and so I say that to say like I had I've come to a better understanding of fasting. Um, fasting has been a huge way that the Lord speaks to me. Um, for some reason, I had it in my head that fasting was something you do to change a situation. Um, I did not realize it was you you fast so that God can change you, not the situation. He changes you so you see the situation properly, not change the situation to the way you want to appease your needs. Um, but hey, that's how we learn, right? Yeah, and uh so he had been he also spoke to me during that time uh through dreams. And that's one thing I feel like God and I kind of have this unique um language with each other, and he he speaks to me in dreams, and and one of them during all of it was um a dream about my grandmother who is already passed, and it was her, um Deborah, the the woman who's now my wife. Um, this dream happened before we got married. Um, they're in the room together. I'm in the room, and my parents are in the room, and it was a kind of a like there was some sorrow in the room, um, like some anticipation or whatever. And my grandmother reaches over and grabs Deborah by the hand and says that everything's gonna be okay. And in the dream, she looks over at my parents and says, I need to give her one of my pearls. You know, doesn't really mean anything. I wake up, I'm like, that is weird. And I reach out to my dad. I'm like, Hey, um, did Memo have a thing about pearls? And he was like, Are you kidding me? He said, Don't don't you remember her and her pearls? And I said, No, dad, I don't remember. He goes, Remember when she passed, she gave every family member a pearl. And I was like, Wait, what? And he said, Yeah, when she passed, um, she had put it in that every family member in the family received um a piece of her pearl jewelry. And so the dream was was showing that, like it was like saying, Deb, welcome to the family. And so it's it was so many things like that, those things happened time and time and time again. Um, but you know, through all that, there were so many hard moments, but God allowed me to to learn and grow in all of it. Um, one was his word, like I don't know how many nights I've gone to sleep with um with psalms on repeat, or just like man, just I don't know what I would do if if it wasn't for his word. Yeah, and you know, praying, praying in the spirit's great, all these things, but man, getting to his word and just being reminded and saturated and washed by his word, his written word, is it just it helps bring you back to center. And then the second thing was um God really been speaking to me through um through some really good good men. And um, and I will say this, like one of the most important nights of my life that really helped me in healing, like kind of helping me this one night I was in really rough shape, like I was like depressed, and this was probably like four months into everything happening. So I was like, I literally weighed less than 120 pounds, like I was shrunk up to nothing, and not eating, like I was a mess. And um, I remember one night there was a knock on my door, and it was two guys, and these gentlemen were they're not in ministry, they're not pastors, they're not teachers, they're not they're they're not any of that. They are one's uh is a retired uh counterintelligence army guy, and the other one is a SWAT team officer, and they showed up with some food and what's that tough dudes, tough dudes, 100%. And I opened the door, they had food, they had drinks, they came in and sat down. They're like, All right, it's time we talk. Wow, and we talked for about four hours that night, and that it was like one of the first times uh I got to sit down and I got to tell my whole side of the story, and not one chuckle, not one smirk, not one bit of judgment at all. Yeah, but honestly, after I said everything, like both those guys were like, hey, I've been there. I felt that like that I was mainly talking about the heaviness that comes on you, and just because I was still trying to process the suicide attempt and that heaviness that came from it. And these guys have seen awful, horrible things, and they've had to endure and they've had to walk through things, and it was it was very it helped me that night that those men who they have walked through those things, and we talked about things that quote unquote men shouldn't talk about, and we talked about and it ended up being extremely helpful. Like, okay, I still have brothers, yeah, and they are brothers to this day, and I will love them forever for that. And so it was it was good counsel, and um I'm still like I I still have um friends that are counselors, and we talk very often, and they they challenge me when I need to be challenged and help when I need to be helped. And um, another way God's talking um to me is through my wife, um, Deborah. And like I it is it is awesome. Like, I just I can't say it enough. Like, and that's one reason why we're going back into ministry. It's like if you would have told me two years ago that I was gonna go back, absolutely not. I am not going back to all that. But now that I I know, I know that I know that I know that I have somebody that has my back, that has that is gonna walk side by side and be right there with me through thick and thin. And like it gives me gives me the proper confidence I need. And I hope I give her the proper confidence as well. Um, my family absolutely loves her. Like my brother-in-law is there, like, dude, she is the female version of you. She is perfect for you, brother. And it's and it's awesome. And um, and and and the last honestly, I think the last three years has allowed us to grow 18 years worth, like, you know, what the things that we've been through and how close we've become. It is is been it has been painful, but we are closer than I could ever imagine two people being. And um, and I love Jesus even more for it. And um I've been very thankful for how good my kids are doing. Like I have a son and a daughter, yeah. And um God has had their hand on them. Like I was uh I spent a lot of time praying over them. Like I did not want this to be something that hurt them. Um, but they are doing really well. I mean, obviously it does have some sort of impact. I'm not ignorant to that. Um, but they're doing good. And they they even say, you know, like dad, you're you seem happier. You know, you look you look healthy. And um, because back then I was in a household where I had no voice. Like everything I did was second guessed, it was overridden, like I had no voice in my own household. And like I couldn't pray in tongues, I couldn't do any of those things without being criticized or given the silent treatment or whatever. So I became a shell of who I really was. So with this, they get the they get the version of me that they deserve, and I've always wanted to give them. And um, and so with that, um my vision and just kind of my um my range for for listening for the Lord has it has been very, very thin, very narrow, not thin, but narrow. Like I've just been really focusing on what the Lord is doing in me and in my family, and then so zooming out when it comes to you know the United States and where our country is we've got some very I believe and what do I know but here's where I'm at um I really believe we have some pivotal moments that are coming that are going to make or break us as a country. There's too much information coming out that if we can't ignore and if we ignore it we're gonna hand ourselves over um and we need to we need to handle we need to handle the the snakes in the hen house if our nation's going to have a shot. And um but I don't know I don't know if our country is ready for what that actually means. Sadly I think that means that a lot of people that have been viewed as as heroes and viewed as leaders are, you know, and that mask comes off and it shows what they had to do to get that power and keep that power and who they've been going to to sustain that power. I don't think we're I don't think we're ready I don't think the American public is ready for the veil to be lifted to see that that a lot of our so-called leaders are are Satanist and are um literally delicately trying to bring an end to our nation and to make us a slave to other nations for their own gain. And but it's I think it's kind of like a now or never kind of thing and when it comes to the church um we gotta we gotta fall in love with Jesus and we gotta fall out of love with the mirror and our own we're too many we're building our own kingdoms and yes we are and me being in ministry like I know that there have been times in my thought processes I'm probably guilty of that. Like I probably made choices where I was thinking how can I build five crowns instead of you know advance the kingdom um and because we're we're human we're gonna make mistakes but we've we've really got a a great I believe that a great wave of conviction needs to hit our nation and we need to respond to it and um but you know we're all excited about revival you know we're all like revival's coming revival's coming revival's coming okay if revival is coming is the church ready for that like how many demons are we gonna have to cast out and right now we have so many churches that don't even believe that demons exist that's right or they don't even want to deal with demons they're like there's there's ministers who are scared of demons there are ministers who who refuse they don't think it's biblical to cast out demons but we have really hurt people and they have real demons in them on them around them and when when these beautiful people follow their conviction and they come into the house of the Lord and they get in his presence those demons are going to rattle loose and we have to be ready to respond to that. And so it's my hope that the Lord is and I believe he is raising up some evangelists that just will not take no for an answer. They are men and women of courage and fire and they will they will step up to the plate of when it's time and that there are pastors that that will be shepherds they won't be controlling. There will be teachers that will teach the actual word they won't be uh analytical they won't be legalistic and uh prophets that'll actually prophesy and not you know not prophy lie and so um and apostles that will build not tear down and so that's that's my hope for a country I feel like the next ah goodness I think I think the next four years leading up to 2030 like we've every decision we make as a whole is crucial for for our country.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

Yeah and for the people in the country for sure.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Absolutely I yeah 100% this isn't necessarily one of the questions but as you were talking I I thought of something what would you say to someone that is waiting on a promise or they're are they waiting on in faith for something to happen that they haven't seen happen yet what would you say to them ahead of 2030 steward what you got be faithful steward what you got um hey man fight the good fight of faith like don't don't give up just because just because more time has gone by than you've anticipated doesn't mean that the the promise is less real wake up in the morning with a fire in your heart that that is like keep the faith like that God said that to you God has spoken that to you it shall come to pass and in the meantime you get your heart ready you draw a circle around yourself work on everything inside that circle until the promise comes and make sure that when the promise does come you can steward it you can handle it and um you don't um you don't squander it and um and yeah stay encouraged and like um if you're waiting for one specific word to be fulfilled go back to the last word you got and make sure that you have you have fulfilled that one and make sure like everything is is tidied up leading leading up to that. And so yeah just waiting on a promise is just be faithful be encouraged don't let doubt and despair get you because like we all we all go through um we all go through depression like we'll all go through these old depressions these little dips what I mean by it um but what happens with despair is when we get stuck like depression is when we're when or despair is when we become stuck in our depression and I think that's what Satan loves for us to do is for us to get in a state of despair and when we do that we no longer cling to the promise and when we no longer cling to the promise we abandon it and that's the only way he can steal something he can't steal something if it is in our hands and it's in our in our grasp in our attention he can only steal what we allow him to steal by neglecting it and so that's the big thing is just man just keep holding on keep holding on and um yeah that's that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_02 51:01

That's awesome. Well thank you for that I threw a little curve all at you. Yeah of course if you could tell someone to chase after Jesus and pursue redemption what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_01 51:12

One I would say it's not too late. Like however however far down the road you think you are like you're like yeah this person could get saved this person could get redeemed but not me it is not too late. Like as long as you are breathing like God still has a plan and purpose for you. He is not giving up on you um he he he's not like that God's not a God's not like that. And so um one it's not too late no matter how dark or how bad you think it is you you can number two um God is not in agreement with your abusers. So I think this becomes a stumbling block a good bit is what happens is is people that are that are hurt because a lot of times people a lot of times it's not what people did it's what was done to them that are walking in a lot of hurt and a lot of darkness. Yeah it's not because of what they did is what was done to them and they are like what on earth is going on and they look and see at the person that hurt them yeah and they're like how is it how is it that they're getting away with it like they're not being punished they're not being disciplined at all like they're it looks like they were rewarded for doing what they did to me just because that is happening does not mean that God is in agreement with them and you got to keep doing what you're doing. God will handle that in his timing and I can say like I could I could unpack story after story after story of all the times that God told me to shut my mouth and I didn't want to but I did anyway and God brought forth justice in the most beautiful way that he wouldn't have been able to if I had opened my mouth or tried to bring bring justice uh forward um so there's that just know like just because it's not you're not seeing what you want to see doesn't mean that God's in agreement with what happened to you number three is um seek peace not justice and because at the end of the day you you gotta be okay within so instead of seeking being you know being made right just seek peace seek him and and that'll help and so the other thing I'll say this is pursue Jesus and not the church. Amen I know that's that's gonna make a lot of people mad but hear me out on that no it's the truth it is it is and that's the thing is like the truth will set you free but most likely it'll hurt or make you very angry at first um so and that it's hard because I know so many really beautiful and amazing people that are not following the Lord and it's not because they got anything against Jesus it's just because they've got something against what happened to them in church. Yeah what a what a pastor said or what a ministry leader did or what whatever it is. And so I would say go pursue after the person Jesus like go after him and then because right now the church is supposed to be like Jesus we are supposed to be the hands and feet of Jesus we are supposed to have the mind of Christ we're supposed to be um we're supposed to be demonstrating the love of Christ we're supposed to be doing all those things absolutely as a whole we're not quite hitting that mark yet and I'm a part of the problem I'm not throwing like I'm a I'm I'm a sinner just like everybody else I have my own things I have to work through I'm not I will never pretend that I got it all figured out and I'm perfect. What I will say is like there's a lot of people that are turning away from the faith because of what religion is doing and and not because of actually like they're not they're rejecting religion and not Jesus but because of what religion did to them they're walking away from Jesus not knowing that the things that are actually making them mad are the same things that made Jesus really mad too like that's the things that that are frustrating them are the things that led to Jesus flipping tables and making a whip. Like yeah like I remember ministering this one guy he was like why would I want to be a Christian like like I see this and that and that and it's frustrating making me angry and all this stuff and I started laughing. He's like what are you laughing about? I said dude you have the exact same heart as Jesus towards all of this he's like what and so when I finally was able to share and like introduce Jesus to him not the church not here's our plans here's our programs here's our five-point strategy on how to be the biggest church and get the three services on a Sunday and have the coolest website and all the bounce houses and bubble machines and all that no Jesus the kingdom of heaven you know introducing that to him like that's the big thing. So that's my encouragement is it's not too late seek peace and go for Jesus just go after him and if that can start off with a prayer of like all right um God if you're if you're really there I would love to meet you like if you if you really are who you say you are um I would love to experience that just start with that start with that if you got a Bible start in the book of John that's right like don't worry about Genesis don't worry about all that start in the gospel of John and just already or go to first joint it's in the very back of the Bible and it's like it's just a few pages. You can handle it first John so either gospel of John or 1 John read that and just take it from there and see what happens that'd be my encouragement.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

That's so good.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Well do you mind praying over the audience and imparting some hope for the year oh I would love to that'd be amazing let's do it uh yeah it's gonna be a crazy year all right um well one hey thank you for having me on I really do appreciate it and uh this is this has been amazing so I hope that this does help somebody um we know we know yeah so just uh one if you if you are you're going through this stuff one I'm sorry um two you are loved you are valued um if you don't feel like your voice does matter your voice does matter and um I'll be praying for for God's protection over you and for God to bring the right people into your life um get or keep the wrong ones out and um and yeah for you to be healed and and made whole okay all right let's pray Jesus Lord we love you and we praise you God thank you so much that that on the days that we find out that rock bottom has a basement that we find that you are there and thank you Lord that any time that I had hit rock bottom and anytime that I felt like I was completely defeated and overwhelmed you kept showing up and so God I thank you for that God I thank you that you constantly make a way you make a way in things that that that are viewed as impossible to have a way being made from and so God I thank you for that Lord we need you i we need you Lord I'm a mess this world's a mess we're all a mess and and we need you so Lord I do I pray for your spirit the spirit of wisdom and revelation to sweep up our hearts Lord that we would have a head on collision with your goodness and your mercy Lord that you would meet us right in the middle of our hurt like the one place in all of our hearts where we think you don't want to meet with us like that be the first place that you want to meet with us where where we hurt the most where we are the most fearful where we are the most broken. Lord I pray that is the place you show up in our lives God that you bring healing that you bring redemption and Lord I thank you that your word says that that for us to draw near to you because you'll draw near to us and I thank you that you do that in such an unfair way like we take one step towards you you take a million towards us and so God I thank you for that and so Lord I just pray that all of our hearts everyone that is listens to this that our hearts would be postured towards you that our hearts would take one step towards you and you would just come and sweep us up God that we would be swept up with your peace your comfort and your joy Lord that we would be filled with your spirit and for anyone anyone that is that is enduring um trauma anyone that is enduring abuse or people that are dealing with demonic oppression or even those that are fighting off demonic possession Lord I just speak freedom over them right now in the name of Jesus Lord I pray that they would be made free that the shackles would shatter right now in Jesus' name all sickness and all bondage leave right now in Jesus' name that the spirit of death and the spirit of darkness has no right to the people that are listening and that they would be completely scattered right now in Jesus' name and that healing would come that every void in our hearts would be filled God with your presence your love your hope your joy your peace your everything God Lord that today would be a day a line would be drawn in the sand that the attacks they stop no more we're not taking the hits anymore we're not taking the we're not taking the abuse anymore we're standing our ground rooted firmly in the word of God and so Lord I just pray right now that every person listening that you would wrap them up in your love that they could that that their hearts are so filled with your presence that it is tangible I thank you that your Holy Spirit is known as the helper and the comforter so the times that we need help and the times that we don't know what to do and the times that we are uncomfortable you are right there just to step in and to hold us to keep us to teach us and to comfort us so Lord bless your children.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

Lord help us all God please bring our country to the place that it needs to be submitted in honoring and worshiping you God and it is in Jesus' name I pray amen well thank you Dennis for coming on this was wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

Hey thank you I appreciate it very much