SPEAKER_02 0:07

Marge Moscow is married to Potter and have two grandsons, two daughter-in-laws, and four adorable grandchildren all north of Sydney, Australia. She has a theology degree from the Australian College of Ministrels and a master's degree with a specialization of early Christian and Jewish studies from Macaro University. Her well-researched biblical reflection richly informs women called a ministry, pastors reflecting on women's roles in marriage and ministry, and anyone curious about women's leadership in Scripture. People frequently point to her research for wanting a deeper understanding of the word.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Lovely to be here though.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

It's very, very fun. So I would love to hear sort of the beginning of your journey. How did you come to know Jesus?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

So we went to church most Sunday mornings. It was a Dutch Reformed Church in Australia. And I loved church. I paid attention even though I was a girl. And we even had catechism classes, like a young girl, like you know, seven and eight. Yeah, I loved church. And I love catechism classes even more. So I think I was already sort of primed to loving the Bible and you know getting into it. But I didn't really know Jesus. So when I was in year five, I was at a Christian camp. And I still remember, yeah, I still remember the story that this lady gave at the end of the at the end of a long day. And it was really about that being a Christian wasn't about following rules, it was about having a relationship with Jesus, and she mentioned the Holy Spirit, who I'd heard of but hadn't really thought about before. And it just made a lot of sense to me. So um all the other girls, because it was a girls' camp, went to have their hot chocolate for the evening, but I disappeared and went to the dormitory and I prayed a prayer as like a 10-year-old girl, a very simple prayer and not a theologically dense prayer. But God really answered that prayer, like uh like I had a really tangible experience, like a profound experience, and because of that experience, I I I just can't doubt God. And from that moment, from that moment, um, following God, serving God, being a follower of Jesus has really been the most important thing in my life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Yeah, he's so amazing. So we would love to hear a little bit, and you talked about it, but a little bit about your upbringing and sort of how that brought you into what you're doing now and sort of your theology progression.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah. Um, so like I said, I've always been interested in the Bible. So, like when I got saved, um, because that's what I call it, um, at that camp, they said, Oh, now that you're a Christian, you have to read the Bible, and I did because I was a really good girl for my younger years, maybe not so much in my teenage years, but anyway. And um I did, I read the Bible every day and I loved it. And even from the very beginning, I seemed to get so much out of it, and I still do. Um, so yeah, and also at one point I found out that the New Testament was written in Greek, so I decided that at one point I would learn to read the New Testament in Greek, and so I've been doing that for many years now. It's it's still a passion of mine. And as I was reading the Bible in Greek, I just noticed that some things that I had seen in English translations or things that I had heard from the pulpit weren't really exactly the same in the Greek. Yeah. And um so Romans 12 was a really big turning point. So I'm so, in some ways, I was really content to follow what I thought were biblical gender roles because um even though I've got strong opinions, I'm not a particularly assertive person. Um, I married a very kind man, um, and so our marriage was fine without anyone having to be the boss, even though I always felt that I had to sort of acquiesce to him more than he needed to acquiesce with me. Um he just wasn't interested in being the boss. So yeah, and I think also in some ways I've got quite a submissive nature. Um that probably sounds a bit weird, but um so I really like Asian cultures. I think um I would fit in more with Asian cultures than in some Western cultures, yeah. So so the whole thing about gender roles wasn't actually a really big deal for me because I had a lovely husband, I was doing everything I wanted to do in ministry, I didn't have I didn't have goals to be a speaker or a preacher, so I was quite content, yeah. Um but when I was maybe 40, I felt God was calling me to be more of a leader, and I did struggle with that. And so one night I was reading Romans 12 in the old NIV, and it it's um so that begins, or how does it begin? I think it says, if your gift is this, do it, if it's prophecy, um, if it's teaching, if it's exhortation, if it's giving. And sure, but in but in the old NIV, it's got the word man there, and it's got all masculine pronouns. And I remember saying to God, see, I can't be a leader because that's for men. Like I actually sort of said that to God really clearly, I can't be a leader because that's for men. But I'd started learning Greek at that time, and so I looked it up in the Greek, and there was no Greek word that says man of any description, and you know, it it I often say that Romans 12, 6 to 8 is just as um gender marked or gender neutral in the Greek as John 3.16 because it's got similar constructions. Yeah, so yeah, and and that really shocked me. That really shocked me to see that in um the Greek that it wasn't marked for gender, that it wasn't this is only for men. And most, almost all recent translations of Romans 12, 6 to 8, um have those verses about ministries in quite a non-gendered way. Yeah. Because it applies to whoever. If your gift is prophecy, prophesy. If your gift is teaching, teach. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

That's so great. So I'm wondering a little bit, you know, speaking of sort of the gender roles and things of that are in the Western Church specifically, what do you see are sort of the top like three misuses of scripture when it comes to women and gender and relationships?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Sure. Yeah, and misuse I think is is the right word. Uh so the verse that gets quoted to me a lot, and it's always just quoted out of context, yeah, is 1 Timothy 2.12, where it says, Um, I do not allow a woman to teach, um, or to, and I translate that Greek word domineer. Um, to domineer a man, she means to be in quietness. Um, and uh most English translations have something like exercise authority, but but the word in 1 Timothy 2.12 um it really is a rare word, it's an uncommon word, and I've looked at that word a lot. Um, and it it doesn't mean just a normal type of authority, it's often a really negative authority. So Chrysostom uses exactly the same word when he tells husbands, don't do this to your wives. So Chrysostom in his sermon on Colossians 3.19, which is a verse addressed to husbands, he says, Husbands don't authentic, um, a husband shouldn't authenticate his wife. And so here in 1 Timothy 2.12, Paul is saying a woman shouldn't authenticate a man, who I think is probably her husband. She needs to just settle down, and that word isn't even quietness, it's just about settling down. Yeah. Um, so I fully think um 1 Timothy 2.12, especially if we start from verse 8 and go all the way to 15, Paul is addressing bad behavior in the Ephesian church. He's addressing the poor behavior of men who are angry for some reason, and he's addressing the rich women who are overdressed, and he wants them to just tone things down, and then he narrows it to a woman, a woman. Um, and he says that a woman should learn, so that's a good thing. And so then this woman who needs to learn isn't allowed to teach, which makes pretty good sense to me if she still needs to learn, and then she's not allowed to domineer a man, which is good advice, if you know, presuming there was a woman who was domineering a man, or perhaps a small group of women in the Ephesian church, because I don't think this is a broad statement. Paul is addressing bad behavior, so not all the men in Ephesus were angry, not all the women were dressed up with gold and pearls and you know fancy apparel. Um, but then he does go from plural men in verse 8, plural women verses 9 to 10 to a woman and a man, and a lot of people think that he's talking about husband and wife relationships. So Luther thought that. Luther thought it was a husband and wife relationship in 1 Timothy 2, 11 to 12 onwards. Um, the the CEV translation translates it as husband and wife, so it's it's not a fringe idea, yeah. So that's that's it, 1 Timothy 2.12. Yeah, it gets quoted a lot and always out of context. And sure, yeah, it's really been used to stop women, and then this verse gets expanded to mean women can't be pastors, but you know, Paul's not saying anything about being a pastor, he's addressing bad behavior here.

unknown 12:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

What are a couple of other verses that you've seen? Because that's obviously the big one.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

That is the big one. Um, I think 1 Corinthians 11, um, so that's that's got the verse in it or the phrase in it that says the husband man is the head of woman. I'm saying that right, man is the head of woman. And so people focus on that and they completely lose sight of the fact that the men and the women in in Corinth were doing exactly the same things. They were praying and prophesying. And Paul isn't silencing these men and women. He's not saying stop praying, stop prophesying, he's not saying women can only do it this way and men can only do it that way. Um, what he is concerned about is something about their head coverings or their hairstyles. I personally think he's talking about hair lengths, um, and I probably don't have time to go into it, but we know from 1 Corinthians 7 that uh men and women were giving up on sex and marriage, the whole context of 1 Corinthians 7. Yes, and and this becomes a huge theme in the early church, especially in the second century. A lot of people weren't getting married, a lot of people weren't, a lot of Christians weren't getting married, a lot of Christians weren't having sex, because having sex somehow tainted your holiness. Um so we see that in the Corinthian church, we see that in the Ephesian church also in in the New Testament. So I think some of these women were cutting their hair short, and again we have the example, examples of this in the second century, Thekla, when she becomes a Christian, she cuts her hair, she wears men's clothings, and there's quite a few similar stories like that. Um, so whatever it is, there's something about hair, and Paul says a woman's long hair is given to her as a covering. So he actually says that in 1 Corinthians 11. Um, so whatever you make of head, and we don't have time to go into that where it says man is the head of woman, but I do. I go into that in quite a lot of detail on my website. Uh, we we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the men and the women were doing the same thing they were praying and prophesying in Corinthian churches. And Paul didn't silence sound speaking and sound teaching. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

In fact, the opposite, he encouraged it.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Absolutely, absolutely. There's he encouraged participation in ministry. His basic theology is if you have a gift, use it. If we sort of boil down, so he's got all these lists in his letters. I've already mentioned Romans 12, there's a list in Ephesians 4, there's a list in 1 Corinthians somewhere, Colossians 3.16, because I have looked at these verses, so I've kind of memorized them. Um and his you know, he mentions all these ministries, and in all these verses, there's nothing in them to say some are only for men, some are only for women. It's just these are the gifts. If that's your gift, use it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

That's so good. Yeah. So we can go a little bit into the next thing, I think, which will it's about scripture, right? Um, but also about the word submission. And I don't know how much you want to unpack there. Um but I know personally that verse has been used at me multiple times. And um I would love to sort of unpack what does the Greek say? Like, what does the word submission really mean in relation to relationships and women? And and what does mutual submission look like? Yeah, you know, I believe in mutual submission and mutual honor, and so I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

It is really important, and I think most people recognize um, you know, even if we just don't look at what the Bible says for a minute, just in everyday life, healthy relationships are about people kind of being humble and give and take, and um, yeah, because I often say that if you're not being obnoxious or if you're not being a jerk, you're probably doing it okay. Because it's just about it is about honoring the other person above yourself, it is about being humble, which is a normal Christian trait. It should be a normal Christian trait for all of us, you know, being humble and submissive. Um so it is a word that I've looked at. The trouble with this, the Greek word hupotaso, is that it's used in a range of um a range of contexts and a range of um senses and also with different voices, you know, active, middle, and passive voices in the Greek. So I think what I've been doing is I've been trying to really look at the context where Paul uses this word. Um actually, I just want to point out too, and I don't know if I can quote it properly, but um, there's a New Testament scholar, Townsend, and he says we need to be really careful with this Greek word that we don't uh that we don't ascribe to it this sort of subordinate idea in every sense. And sometimes it's clearly not about subordinating um someone to someone else. Um, okay, so yeah, I so in Ephesians um so Paul uses this word a lot. Let me just start with that. Paul uses the submission verb and the submission noun quite a lot. Um, so I think the verb over 20 times, and then he uses the noun as well. So this is a big part of Paul's vocabulary. And I don't think he's talking about subordination because when you if you look at Paul's big picture of human relations, it's like the opposite of subordinating people. And I think um perhaps the sense that Paul wants to draw out in a lot of these instances is more about allegiance and loyalty. But I'm not ready to overstate that yet because I'm honestly still just looking into that. Um yeah, because sometimes when you look at how Paul uses it, it's almost the if you look at so in Philippians 3 verses 20 to 21, it talks about us being um transformed and becoming like Jesus, but it's also got the submission word in there, and so it's not at all about us kind of being lowered, it's the the context of Philippians 3, 22-21 is about us becoming like Jesus, being transformed and almost being elevated. Um there's another verse which isn't Paul, it's in James, and it's submit yourselves to God. But if you look at the context of that, um, the opposite which is being presented is kind of being rebellious, but and oh that's that's actually not a great example, but it's about not holding on to God, it's about not holding on, and so I think there's this idea of holding on to Jesus in the ones about submissiveness, and like I said in the church in Ephesus and the church in Corinth, we know wives were leaving their husbands. We know that wives, if they weren't leaving their husbands, were refusing sex, and men were doing that too, men were also refusing sex, but I think perhaps women were doing that more. And and I think Paul's Paul's just saying, no, no, hang on, hold fast to your husband. Um, there's just this verse that's kind of escaping me where um I think maybe it's in Ephesians 4, where um Paul is saying hold fast to the head, and I think submission is used in there in that context somewhere. So it it's a word that I will continue because I don't think it just simply means subordinate yourself. Sure. And it's not because I don't want it to think that, I don't want to think that it's just that it doesn't make sense of Paul's bigger picture of relationships in the body of Christ. And his aim when he talks about wives and husbands is unity, it's not subordination. Yeah. It's a tricky word. I will keep looking at it.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Yeah, absolutely. And and it does take a lot of it does take a lot of research and understanding, especially when you're translating between Greek and English.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

And it doesn't come up a real lot in other Greek texts. Um because I read um other Greek texts because you know if you just look at the New Testament, you've only got you know a few few books or 27 books. Sure. But if you start reading other Greek texts, especially texts written in the um first century, and especially Greek texts written by other Jewish authors written in the first century, you get bigger picture of how these words are used. And Hupataso, it's not a rare word, but it doesn't come up a lot, and it does come, but when it does come up, it's in a broad context of um and and and a big range of meanings. Yeah, sometimes I think it just means cooperate. So in uh 1 Corinthians 16. 16, I think it just means cooperate. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Wouldn't it be great if we could get it translated that way?

SPEAKER_01 22:17

It would make a big difference because yeah, that submit word comes with so much baggage. I don't even think submit is necessarily a wrong translation, but it's the baggage that comes with it. Everything we've been taught what this submit is supposed to look like. That's the real problem with this word. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Absolutely. When it's weaponized and it's been weaponized against so many people.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

And when it's elaborated on and emphasized and exaggerated. Yeah. Like I said, Paul uses that verb over 20 times. We don't hear about all those other times. Those other verses aren't getting exaggerated and emphasized. It's the wives submit to your husbands that gets exaggerated and emphasized and elaborated on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Absolutely. So can you talk a little bit to the story of Deborah? I know you've gone and looked into all of that.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

And, you know, just what she sort of represented as a woman in leadership. Um why does the church, do you think, do you think they really sort of argue against that narrative and story?

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Yeah, it's really interesting because I have an article on my website called Deborah and the No Available Men argument. And it was the first article on my website that I had to close comments on because I was getting so many hateful comments and so many illogical comments, literally hundreds. I probably removed, I don't want to exaggerate. That was his starting point on women in ministry. And yeah, and he was arguing that Deborah wasn't really a judge, and that Barak really was the judge. Um, he actually said a whole lot of things that are almost the opposite of what the Hebrew says, so it was a very unfortunate sermon. But anyway, um, but Nij Gupta, who is an author that I really admire, he kind of did the same thing. So he has a book called, oh, I can't think of it'll come to me. He's got a book that's worth reading. Let me just put that. What is it called? Anyway, but he starts with a chapter on Deborah. So he has like almost a dozen pages just on Deborah. So he also felt that the best way to approach this topic was to start with Deborah. Because if we look at what she was doing in Israel, she was um perhaps not even a leader of Israel. She might have been like the leader at this point in time in Israel's history. She was a prophet, um, she told Barak, who was the army general, what to do. That's leadership, and she was right in what she prophesied and what she said. And Israel prospered, they prospered under her leadership. So she wasn't just a leader, she was a good leader. She was a good leader. So if we think that leadership is not for women, because of you know, 1 Timothy 2.12, which happens later on, and which I think is about one woman or a group of women in the Ephesian church who are misbehaving, um, you know, if people are trying to sort of read that verse back onto Deborah, who was clearly leading. And I actually don't like using the word clearly because some people just really, yeah, um, they really don't like Deborah and the precedent that she set. So if we acknowledge that Deborah was the leader of Israel, that she did a good job, then that is a problem for people who think that God doesn't like women leaders. Yeah. And even though Deborah does stand out as a significant leader, there were other women, if you look at the text, who exercised leadership roles. One of my favorites is the wise woman of Abel Beth MacArr. So she pretty much rescues her town. She's the one who negotiates with Joab, and she's the one who tells the town folk this is what you should do. This is what this is what you should do. And they do, they do what she says. So this wasn't some random woman, this was a woman who probably already, I'm saying probably, but she pretty much, we can say, already had some leadership role. She acted decisively, she rescued her town, and Joab listened to her, her townsfolk listened to her. Um so even though men in leadership was the norm, I'd say, in those times, there were women leaders, and there's um yeah, the Bible never sort of, especially in the Old Testament, if we're looking at these women when they pop up, there's no hint that they were doing something a little bit unusual or that the men had a problem with it. I've actually got a list of women who gave directions to men, even like Rahab telling the spies what to do and all that kind of stuff. And there's no hint that the guys were going, oh, I'm not going to take direction for a woman, or oh, my masculinity is feeling threatened right now because this woman is telling me what to do. That the women were just doing what they were doing, and the men were going, thank you very much, and following their advice. You know, David followed um Abigail's advice, and yeah, it's it's not a big deal. People are making such a big deal out of women in leadership, that's not what God wants, but it's not a big deal, it shouldn't be a big deal. Women were leaders, and God seems to have had no problem with it.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yeah, I mean he created us to be yeah, so in Genesis 1, you know, when he's creating humanity, we have the same status, we have the same um author authorization, we have the same responsibilities, we have the same purpose. That there's sexual differentiation, male and female humanity, but there's in Genesis 1, you know, when it all starts, there's no differentiation of roles or hierarchies, anything like that. Yeah. We we're both male and female humanity together, together as partners, are supposed to be in charge of this world that God created.

unknown 30:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Yeah, and we're better, I mean, we're stronger when we're together, you know, and we're united. And I just think these kind of conversations. Yes. And I I think a lot of these conversations just need to be had because then we would be way stronger. Um yeah, I'm wondering, I and I imagine you have, because I've I have digested your site at length, and I was going through a period of just really trying to understand the scriptures better. Um, I had started a master's of theology, but have not finished that at all. Um, my life went a little bit of a different direction for a while, but I love the Bible and I love to learn. So have you I how have you seen people, men and women, flourish from just your breakdown and your knowledge of theology?

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Yeah, um, I get lots of letters. Um heartbreaking letters. Um, people are struggling, but I do get people saying, um, and and I don't even really want to sort of quote them because um, you know, like really, really lovely letters, really thanking me for my work. You know, people whose faith is at a crisis, people, women, women who really think, like, did God really create me just to serve, just to be a servant? Actually, God created all of us to serve one another, but that's that's kind of another story. Um you know, people people will use different words to try to sugarcoat it. They'll say, Oh, it's not about hierarchy, it's about order. And I'm going, I don't know what the difference is between if men are first and women are second, you know. I don't think women are second. The fact even that God created Eve second wasn't to show that she was secondary, it was to show how vital she was because Adam couldn't do it on his own. You know, people misread the Genesis 2 story as well. If we really want to hear what the author was saying, what I think the author is saying is that it's not good for the man to be alone, it's not good for men to do it on their own. And sure, you know, and so Eve was created from a side taken out of his body, you know, that were similar, they were compatible, and she was so necessary, not as an auxiliary or a subordinate assistant, but as an equal partner, and um sort of getting off track a bit. But yeah, a lot of people, and sometimes I've had a few letters, and to my shame, I don't remember these people from before, but they will tell me, oh, I used to really hate your work and I used to argue with you, and I oh I can't remember, but now, and so that's happened a couple of times. I even blocked you on Twitter, but now because they've come around. Um, because I kind of don't want to tell people what to think. So this is what people have told me. So I just sort of lay out what I think. I mean, sometimes I do push things a bit because I'm passionate about it, but I think because I just lay out what I think, and then people can make up their own decisions, it does it does help people to sort of stay with what I'm saying, and people have changed their minds, or I my target audience actually isn't um my goal in life or my goal with my website isn't to sort of change people's minds. Um terribly well. Um, so the people I'm trying to reach, let me let me try try again. The people I'm trying to reach are the people who are already seeing flaws in um sort of hierarchical models of marriage or hierarchical models of ministry, people who are already questioning, did God really make women for this purpose or for that purpose? And so then they start Googling and they start searching, well, what does this first mean? And that's usually the people who find me, and they're usually the people that say thank you. Yeah. That they've already got questions, they've already got concerns, they're already, you know, even suffering because it's not working for them what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Do you feel like some of that is sort of course correcting though? Like women are starting to realize they're not less than. I think there's out there searching for your yeah, searching for your site. I wonder if people are starting to really recognize like who they are in Christ.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Yeah, I mean, surprisingly, some people are still really slow on the uptake. I have a man who an Australian pastor who still doesn't think that women were that women were um, so like in 1 Genesis 26, where God creates humanity, he thinks it really should be translated when God created man. But then there's a plural verb that means they. So he's wrong. But he so he believes that. I had a really heartbreaking conversation with a woman in a Latin American country who didn't believe women were created in the image of God, and and in the end she asked me to take all her comments off my website, but um, and she was really angry with me, so I just stayed really gentle and just said this and I said that. But um, so there's still people, but I think who struggle with with men and women being in the image of God, but I think most women now hopefully are realizing that the word Asa used of the woman in Eden, it's not a subordinate sort of lowly word. It's a great word, it's an amazing word to describe this woman. You know, she was a vital, someone who this who the man vitally needed, and um, and also because I read Greek, I read the Old Testament in the Septuagint, and they translated it similarly with this really great strong word, um, boethos, which means someone that comes to the aid of someone who's in desperate trouble. Yeah. So in both the Hebrew text and the Greek text, um, it's a great word used twice for the woman in Eden. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

Hmm. That's just great to know. See, I'll learn something new. So, I mean, speaking of different gender roles and things of that nature, if you could encourage men to really become kingdom men and try and change the trajectory of their families, what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

So I don't give people a lot of practical advice. Um maybe I never give people practical advice unless it's kind of obvious. Um because I don't see that as my role, but I really do think that my role or what I'm passionate about is looking looking at what the Bible is saying, looking at every word, but also pulling back and pulling back and pulling back and looking at the context, you know, looking at the passage, looking at the letter, looking at Paul's heart. Um, because as simple as it sounds, Paul's heart was never to subordinate someone, never to make people put people on different levels. And and you know, egalitarians are often accused of over-emphasizing Galatians 3.28. You know, there's no longer Jew or Gentile, male and slave, yeah, and male and female. Um because it does encapsulate some of Paul's ethos, but there are plenty of other verses where you can see that Paul is trying to even out an imbalance in social status because the first century uh Roman world was highly stratified, highly stratified, um, and also it was quite competitive. There was sort of this social pecking order, and rather than being humble, you know, people were really sort of trying to stay at as high a level as they could socially, and Paul's just trying to undo all that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

I could see that. So I guess then as you've gone in and studied scripture, are there certain verses that have just become some of your favorites that you're like, hey, this is where I would I just go to when I need a faith wake up or you know, like anything.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Um I don't know if there's a verse or verses that um that I actually go to, but when I come across them, they always sort of make me spy smile and lift my spirit. And one of them's in Luke 12, um and it's be dressed and ready for service and keep your lamps burning. Um because, like I said, from the get-go, when I first really got to know Jesus, or from the beginning of my journey of getting to know Jesus, I really feel like God called me to serve him, to work, to work. And I really do want to keep my lamps burning, and that the whole context, I think it's in Luke 12, is about you know Jesus or about the master coming back. And I I do want to be ready and prepared and keep my lamps burning. Um, lamp burning. The other one is in the end of Acts 28, and Paul is under house arrest, so he's not doing his thing by going here and there and speaking in marketplaces and speaking in synagogues. He's in house arrest. But it says, and it uses some of my favorite Greek words too, that he spoke boldly and without hindrance. So even though he's under house arrest, he's still he's still proclaiming the kingdom of God. And and that verse always just really makes me makes me feel good. That's yeah, there's a lot, especially now with the internet, there's a lot we can do in our homes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Yeah. You can reach people across the world, which is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

It is it still amazes me, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

So if you could encourage someone to chase after Jesus and pursue redemption, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Um in this day and age, I would tell them to look for Jesus in the Bible, in the Gospels, and and to see his Holy Spirit because how he's being presented and how Christianity is being presented in some parts of the world just isn't like Jesus at all. And like the real Jesus is loving and kind and patient, he's been very patient with me, but also strong, and and the Holy Spirit, his spirit likewise. Um yeah, so yeah, the Jesus in the Gospels, that's that's who we need to look at, and his spirit, um, that can teach us about this Jesus in the gospel and connect us with Jesus. Yeah, that's what we need to focus on and and try to not try to blur out the sounds of people who say this is what Christianity looks like, because yeah, it's really sad how Christianity is being portrayed in the media and by politicians and even by some pastors. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Well, would you be willing to pray us out this evening?

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Okay, I wasn't expecting that, but I will. Yeah, I will pray. Yeah. Lord God, I thank you that you are beautiful, that you are kind, that you are patient, and Lord, you are no respecter of persons, that you've created all of us, that we have all been created in your image, that you've authorized all of us to use our gifts and to care for your world and to care for each other, Lord. I thank you that I thank you that I am a woman because I love being a woman and I love what you've given me to do. And I just pray that all of us can use our gifts, our talents, and our passions for you in ways that glorify you and draw others to you. And I ask this in Jesus' name, amen.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Well, thank you for that beautiful prayer and all of the words of wisdom, and we're very excited to get this out into the world. Thanks for having me, Heather.