SPEAKER_04 0:08

Dr. Phyllis Tarbox has a PhD in clinical Christian counseling from Cornerstone University and is vice president of Above and Beyond Counseling Ministries. She is a professional clinical member of the National Christian Counselors Association and is a lice is licensed as an NCCA clinical pastor counselor. She is also an ordained minister. The amazing thing about Phyllis is that she is very active in deliverance ministry with adults and has helped prepare deliverance ministry training resources for students and children. She helps a lot of different families come into freedom through Christian counseling and deliverance, bringing the supernatural and natural together.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Well, that was interesting. I I accepted Jesus during the Jesus Revolution back in the 70s, you know, where the college kids would come off campus and find all us junior hires and take us to meetings. And it was tangible for me. I was 14. But then the cares of the world and life got in the way. I I don't believe I ever lost my faith, but I never really connected with the baptism of fire with the Holy Spirit until I was probably around 47. And it was powerful where everything shifted. And I just I remember looking at people that I did not like with incredible love. And it was just pouring out of me. It was like an alien was living inside of me, you know. So that the shift was real. And from then it was just pure fire and seeking him and surrendering and you know, just being in that that right place. But I, you know, I think God can do it anyway. I was just reading an acts the other day about how that baptism of fire can come at any. I was in my car just driving, and everything just shifted, yeah. And you know, as unglamorous as it is, I was reading a Kenneth Hagin book in a resort bathroom when I got the gift of tongues. So how that all comes is there's no there's no cookie cutterway, and I think I'm pretty much the one that I would say the least likely that God would use.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

Really?

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yeah, and so it it's been a fascinating journey to see this all come to play.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

Yeah. Hey, amen. That's really cool. Yeah. We would yeah, we would love to hear a little bit of how you got in counseling then, you know, and how you guys came together and made um Above and Beyond Counseling, which is very unique.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Yeah, it is unique. In fact, a few years ago when they put us on the Oprah Winfrey network on Lisa Ling, they wanted us because we were different than just your typical Baptocostal or Pentecostal people with the they wanted a side by side, and we we do do it differently. I actually got into the counseling arena through the deliverance that I went through. I mean, I was on fire with the Holy Spirit. I'd heard about deliverance years before, but it was one of those, you know, that's for somebody else. I don't want any part of it. It's just too strange for me. But then when I got to the bottom of myself and God really had me cornered, that's when I knew, you know, I really desperately needed help. So I came in for deliverance and recognized that when they started to talk about generational curses or wrong verbiage, generational iniquity and things that can be translated down through the family bloodline. Um, I recognized my whole body got up and shipped it in the chair. And it was like, whoa. It was a it was a group deliverance session. There was only seven of us in that particular meeting. Now the ones that we host have upwards of 80. And and I was the girl in the corner that was crying and manifesting and had all of the mamas in the church like praying for me. But it was such a tangible shift of the generational baggage that came off of me that I was so on fire that I just delved into it. Within three months, I had um taken the class on how to bring it out to a different church. And you know, I had my own understanding of where that was going to go, and it didn't work out with me just taking it and running into my church with a deliverance piece of it. So I ended up joining the church that um taught me, which was Paul and Claire Hollis in in Tampa, Florida at the time. Okay. And they and they um taught and trained us very diligently in deliverance and how to do it with order, and and so I ran with them for a while, and then the Lord wanted me to go. I felt like I was supposed to go into the counseling arena since it had become such a passion. And so I did. I started, I we were all registered or you know, licensed through the National Christian Counselors Association. And so I pursued my master's at that point. I'd already had my undergraduate degree from the University of South Florida, but I I got my master's and Christian counseling and then got my PhD. And but it was all birthed out of that tangible experience because quite frankly, I had I would say a righteous anger at 47 of sitting in church my whole life and still struggling with the same things. I mean, I would get mini breakthroughs, but I never really got free. So that's so powerful. So we birthed above and beyond in 2008. Okay. Um together, we my partner Don Ibbotson and I, he's he's the brains behind the the organizational skills, and I'm the one that's out there in front. But but yeah, together we we partnered and um and and just started to grow it from 2008 on, and it started little, and it and you know, we're not tremendously big now, but our reach is, and that's that's important because we do online and in office, and now we have three offices, and that's so wild and cool. Yeah, well, we never wanted to build a a kingdom, like Don would always say, I'm not trying to build a kingdom here, and I would say to him, I know, but we're just trying to meet a need because the need that we have is unusual as far as it being, you know, ordered and we all are licensed and we've studied to find ourselves approved with the Lord, and and so we get a lot of attention with that. It's just a different, different kind of a walk.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

So absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that definitely sets you all apart. Um can you explain a little bit of how the deliverance came to be a part of the counseling ministry?

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Well, our niche always was deliverance because you know, there's a lot of Christian counselors out there that are wonderful, but I've had the opportunity to talk to quite a few of them and they'll say the same thing. We've just been going around and around and around in circles, holding people's hands and and not seeing the victory. Um, and uh, and of course, our classic statement is well, you can't counsel a demon because they're they're typically not compliant, right? So, so in order, you know, we are counselors, but we do like to see the people get free first from the bondage of what their agreements have been holding them up with, strongholds and things. And once they get to the root of that and they're free, then you know, counseling and and and directing, and you know, you just you've just got a much better uh clarity of around you. So our niche has always been deliverance, but it's you know, our our approach is is to really have the person come in the first time and we'll interview them so we can hear their hearts, you know. Some people don't need like a lot, some people need a little, but that that that first interview gives us an understanding. I always surrender every meeting over to the Holy Spirit because he really is the counselor, and I to me it's almost like a I don't know, maybe a deferral. It's not all on me, it shouldn't be. And so I just listen with his ears, right? And so I either hear the keywords and then and then we'll have two sessions how the doors got open for them, and we give out a lot of homework, and then how to close the doors, and then that's a lot of declaration and confession, repentance, you know, just your it's it's a very much a Derek Prince type model, but it it really allows us when the person does come in for the deliverance piece of it, then I'm not warring with their demons. I always use the analogy. It's like if you do the homework and you close the doors and the legal rights since the enemy is a legalist, and then you come in for the deliverance portion, it should be peaceful. It should be peaceful. Um, these things then would not, I just command them to go. But now, you know, there I I said that one time, it was funny. I said that one time to the team that we have when we walk. It should be peaceful. But we got a lot of people in from the islands that had been involved with witchcraft and and santheria and different things like that, and um and then it wasn't peaceful, not as peaceful. We have that five-step process of walking them through the deliverance, and then we and then typically the the deliverance session is a two-hour session. Um it's it's ordered with binding the strong men and and and and calling the spirits out. But typically what I found, Heather, is interesting because when you lend yourself to the Holy Spirit and you just listen, um, he'll show you how those demons will rope together, he'll show you their personal experiences, um, if there's a soul tie or something that's in there holding it up. I mean, it it's it's been fascinating to see this because, you know, I think you and I maybe talked a little bit about it, but I the generational stuff is real, and a lot of the things that come down through the family bloodline they manifest differently in different people. So a lot of times when we're praying, God will actually show me where that original sin came in back through the bloodline. It could have been set, it could have been generations before. I don't always need to see it, but occasionally he will, and that's just the faithfulness of God. Because I think a lot of times when people do their homework, they think, Well, what if I don't remember everything? What if God doesn't show me everything? What if I don't see it all? You know, I think a lot of the places that God really shows up in a deliverance is when you haven't and he goes there anyway, right? I was exhaustive when I did my homework. And these five ladies that prayed for me said, We we know what's tormenting is wrapped up in something that you've been sleeping with for a while, and we but none of us can figure out what it was. And and I was able to root it back to my mom. She had a quilt that she was beautiful that she made, and you know, she had tried tried some unusual things in her life. So when when they got down to the root of that, they recognized that's exactly what it was. And so, you know, when that for me, that was my anchor, that they knew the spirit that was attached to that, which was very real, hadn't manifested to me yet, but it was definitely wrapped up in in that blanket, and they they picked it up. So I think when when I pray for people and you say things like, I don't know, I I I see I see this, and you're and the and it's nothing they've shared, that that to me is yeah, yeah. But I think I think the if I could just digress with one story for you on this one. I think I think the the one of the most fascinating ones was um I had a girl that came in for deliverance, and we were struggling with the spirit of death, straight up death. Her her her mother had seen her grandfather commit suicide off a second story balcony. Her mother had suicidal ideologies, her brother did, her sister died when she was six months old. And she was fine until she turned 18. She didn't have that level of misery, but it was tangible for her at 18. And when it came in, she said she'd been dealing with that weight of that misery and that depression since then. And she had a great life. She couldn't figure it out, and she was on fire for the Lord and everything. But the fruit was not manifesting with joy. So she came in while she's coming in, she's diagnosed with stage four metastatic breast cancer, which is freight train for a 35-year-old, and and we're warring for her over this spirit of death. And the Lord stops me in the middle of the, this is so weird. He stops me in the middle of the and he says, I want you to break an ungodly soul tie between her and Julia Roberts. Well, you know, I'm like, I'm not gonna pay attention to this because what are we talking about rom com queens for when I'm in the middle of a war with the spirit of death? And and it wouldn't stop. So I stopped the deliverance and I asked her, I said, Why is God asking me to break an ungodly soul tie between you and Julia Roberts? And she she put her hands over her face and she said, That's it. And I went, What? She said, My freshman year in college, I sat in my dorm room, and I can't tell you how many times, over and over and over again, I watched Steel Magnolias, where Julia Roberts is a young mother who died with two young children. Yeah, she said, I'm a mother with two young children. She goes, I role-played that role over and over and over again and took on that persona. And I went, Well, you know, you if you made an agreement to dying young with two small children, we've got to sever that. And if it came in with an influence, a media influence like that, we need to break that ungodly bonding that's tying you to that agreement. So we did. She had to face the battle of her life, quite obviously, with stage four metastatic breast cancer, but she knew she was healed. She walked on air. She's since opened up a local restaurant around here, and that story is really emanated out through the church. But it it can show you that you you don't always know the route. And we just go in obedient and surrendered, and God will do what God's going to do.

SPEAKER_04 14:46

That is a wild story. That I mean, that's just cool. It's cool how the Holy Spirit works and shows you things. Yeah. Well, we'll we'll get into a few of them here.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Well, the influencers, I think we overlook that. Yeah, I think we overlook all of that.

SPEAKER_04 15:01

Oh, that's very true. And and because of social media right now, and that sort of celebrity that comes through that, I think is also influencing people in a positive and negative way. But I would love to hear how you help people overcome this like spirit of fear, anger, and rejection. And I think a lot of times those things go together. And but I'm also wondering how some of this plays out in children.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Well, I think, you know, with I think getting back to just the original homework things, you've got to recognize a lot of where that original root came in. Like for me, I would know that fear came in when I was five because I was tangibly the the neighborhood bully. I mean, I was so strong, I remember I would just beat up the boys, and I didn't I didn't have a problem being the strong-willed little lion roaring. But and I and I didn't understand the concept of Frady Cat at all, you know. But but when my mom took me to a movie, and it was a Disney movie, you know, and and and but it was the prelude to Alfred Hitchcock movie back in the day called Hush Hush Sweet Charlotte. So I'm definitely aging myself out. But but but to see that head rolling down the stairs at five, um, as I peeked through the drive through seat cracks, um really opened me up to a spirit of fear. And then from that point on, the enemy just needs a little door when you're young, and then he'll send in the recruits. So you would see a cycle then of like, okay, so that was when I was five, but then when I was and I couldn't sleep with the lights off or anything else after that. And then when I was 12, somebody tried to break into my bedroom window at Christmas time to steal our Christmas gifts. Lived in an old house, couldn't get in, but it scared me to pieces. I remember being paralyzed in bed, and then at 16, somebody throwing up a ladder outside my bedroom window to I thought they were breaking in, but they were just trying to steal Christmas lights. So it was it was like a pattern of how to how to bring in that fear of the dark and that and the things that come in with that. And so by the time I was in my 40s, I couldn't even take the trash out at night. So it generally the enemy comes to kill, steal, and destroy. So whatever he wants to do, he brings in with a small crack that's usually in your childhood. Um, and then he'll compound it by recruiting to amp the game up. I would say, like with rejection, it could start with a visual or a family or a self-perception when you're young, and then then you have junior high girls and high school boyfriends and difficult marriages and things like that, and that rejection just wants to just continue to grow. So yeah, so they uh they do come in, um, they do come in with things like that, and of course, relationships and and different things like that as well. But we take a look at how to call that out. And with the children, you mentioned the children. I I think you with the children, you always you have the benefit of the parents to know the generational inheritance because a lot of those, you know, we'll talk about in generational things, we'll talk about the study of epigenetics, how your your hair color, your eye color, your general appearance is obviously coded into your DNA and you inherit that. But also, what they found with the study of epigenetics is that the emotions are coded into the bloodline. They're coded, they sit right in the in the genome, right above the genome, and and they'll they'll code in things like fear or heaviness or um, you know, whatever pride or lying or any kind of deaf and dumb or anything like that. Those those emotions are coded there and they just need a trigger. They only need something to trigger them. So, what that looks like for the kids could be completely different for what the parents went through. And I think that's that's where I brought you up the one the one conversation about the girl who had um spirit of claustrophobia or fear of being trapped. And and we prayed for her, and my intercessor heard the word train, and I thought, well, there isn't any train in her testimony or any of her intake paperwork. It to me in my mind, then I'm thinking this has got to be generational because we just don't always hop on trains at our in our in our age. So I asked the Lord, I said, Well, if this is something important to you, I need you to show it to me. And when I got to that place of being under a strong man of being trapped or fear of being trapped or abuse, I heard the word train. And so when I asked, he showed me, and I just called out any place your grandfather was trapped on a death camp train coming out of Auschwitz, and this spirit left her, and she looked at me and she was perplexed. She said, You know, I've never ever said that to you. I never told you anything about that. And I said, Well, I have absolutely no clue what I just prayed, or even the logistics of how that can possibly be a possibility. And she said, Well, my grandfather is one of the survivors of the death camp trains coming out of Auschwitz. And I said, How? And she said, Well, he was able to climb over all of the bodies that piled were piling up to his train car, had an escape hatch in the top of it. And so he was the only one that still had the strength to get it open and jump out and live. He had so much claustrophobia and so much survivor guilt, but why would that affect me? And I said, It was your your little brain only needed a trigger. The levity of that emotion was definitely coded into your DNA. And when your brother locked you in that closet, the sound of that door locking and you being in a dark room was familiar enough to bring in that fear because she said when she got locked in there, she went into paralyzing fear. And I thought that was strange. I grew up in a different family. But when my brothers would lock me in a closet when they were playing, um, I was always grateful because they were on the other side of the door and I could get away from them then, you know. But that was not her, that was not her family. So yeah, so she has I've since met with her. She's done a lot of work with us. Um and she's a great um leader of faith here in the Tampa Bay area, and and and she's been to Israel. She she couldn't get on a plane, she couldn't ride an elevator, she couldn't let anybody hug her. She's now married. I mean, that her whole life has completely been shifted because that's out of out of her DNA.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

Yeah, and completely transformed. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah, and so the children, when you get back to the children, then you can see how that is coming down through the family bloodline with that. So it does didn't look the same for her as it did the parents, but yeah, yeah, it's definitely uh definitely the little ones are pretty much operating in a lot of the generational coding and DNA and inequities. You know, we'll look at it a lot of times and you know, the church will see. Split over that as far as, well, we're not dealing with a curse because Jesus died to become a curse for us. And I said 100%. But the scripture in Exodus 20, verse 5, says, the iniquity of the fathers visit the third and the fourth generation. And iniquity is not a curse. It's a sin that came back generations before, and it will visit you. And if and if it visits you and you respond to it, um, or you open up a door like with alcoholism or different things like that, you open it. It's now your curse. But how it looks is different. It's always repackaged from one generation to the next. It's not the modality, it's the spirit behind it, right?

SPEAKER_04 22:48

Sure, sure. So can you tell us about this? This story fascinated me because we had this conversation before we hopped on to record about the young boy that had a spirit of murder.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

And we can we can probably do a whole show on that. On the young boy. Yeah, yeah. At age four.

SPEAKER_04 23:05

I won, but I wanted to say, in light of everything that's happened in the last couple of weeks, I thought the story was important to retell. Um, I would love you to tell a little bit of like what the process of counseling and deliverance looked for looked like for that little boy, and just how important it is for parents to really stay attuned to what's going on in their kids' lives.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

It is because of the mesmerization that's coming in with the web. You know, we all live in there now. Like you and I would probably like to pull away from it a little bit more, but we have responsibilities and emails and appointments. And but the kids are they've been indoctrinated into it. Now, the little boy that was four, I wouldn't say that was how it got to him, but yeah, you're right, keeping abreast of everything. And these parents were were, they were totally on it. He was four years old, and he was he was struggling with a spirit of murder. Um, well, he was struggling with threatening to kill his two-year-old brother and his grandfather with a knife. And and walking around the house in guttural sounds, like, you know, I'm not gonna repeat it, but it just sounded demonic to them. And so they didn't have any understanding of what that could be. It was nothing in their generational bloodline, but they but they but they brought him in and you know, they did due diligence, they did all the homework, any influences, anyone that scared him, anything that had happened. He did have an open door of fear because of a birthing trauma. His mother had actually passed out during birth and they thought she was dead. And so he was actually born into a delivery room of hysteria because her mother was there and she was losing it when the little boy was born. So he was born like into a trauma situation. So he had that door. So so we started to pray for him. I had asked him um if he wanted me to pray for him, and he went, No, I don't want you praying for me. And I thought, well, there it is, right? And I so I had to get on his level and I looked at him and I said, Well, do you do you do you love Jesus? Oh, I do love Jesus. And I said, Well, do you do you I think Jesus has a present for you? And he goes, You do? What do you think it is? I said, Well, I think he wants to take that thing out of your house that makes you be a bad boy and and put something in to help you be a good boy. And that's when I got Romans 8. He looks at me and he says, Oh, Miss Phyllis, I do things. I don't even know why I do it, but I just do it anyway. And I was like, wow, okay, well, that thing, let's get rid of it, okay? And he was like super eager. So he came in the other room. He had red hair, he was sitting all up in his chair real straight. His mama's sitting behind me, you know, a couple of feet away. And I start to pray. And I had told him he's a little house, that he has windows, and maybe things came in through his eyes or his ears. But if he felt anything just to blow him out the front door of his mouth, I just said blow. I, you know, I don't want to scare him. Just I want to get the little things that are in there out, right? We shouldn't go into the whole understanding. So so I'm praying for him, and I hear the Lord say, Call out a spirit of murder and violence. And I am though, I'm not, this is a four-year-old. I mean, I really just dismissed it, almost like the Julia Roberts thing. And then nobody wouldn't leave me alone. So he kept he kept pestering me. And then I and then the mother, she's sitting behind me and she says, I just heard the Holy Spirit tell me to tell you to call out a spirit of murder and violence. And I'm like, whoo, okay. So I did. I just commanded anything that was in his house with murder and violence to go in the name of Jesus. And he starts choking violently. Now, I didn't say anything about choking, and and I just repent, I don't know how, but I retained my peace and just kept saying, I command all murder and violence to go in Jesus' name. And um, you know, I just kept repeating it over and over, and he's choking, choking, choking, and you know, you're getting, I'm getting a little worried to beat red anyway. And so he he he stops and he looks at me and he goes, Oh, Miss Phyllis, it's gone. And I'm like, Okay, good. So I quit quick prayed a blessing, filled him back up with the fruits of the Holy Spirit, let him go back in the other room with his daddy in color, which is where we had been praying for him to begin with. And and he comes and his, I turn around, his mom has got her mouth hanging open, and she's looking at me and she's like, What just happened? And I said, We were just schooled by the Holy Spirit. I said, I said, these spirits go the way they came. Lots of times they'll go with coughing, yawning, tears. But when you get something like choking, I said, that's very indicative of how this thing started. Who choked him? And she went, Oh, I know you broke that soul tie. And I went, How about explaining it to me? She said, Well, he came home with the bruises on his neck one day because a little boy on the playground who was several years older than him had choked him. And I said, Well, okay, but I don't think that demons just jump on little boys. I mean, like that. I don't know. She goes, Well, you know that he had an open door fear. And I said, Correct. And she said, Well, he was afraid it would happen again. She said, Do you also know that scripture don't hang around with an angry man unless you pick up his ways? And I went, Yes. And she said, Well, he picked up his ways out of self-protection because ever since that day he's been getting angrier and angrier and stronger and stronger and more bully-like. And I went, Well, I'm gonna go with it because that spirit left, but we'll watch for the fruit. Because I was, I was like surprised, right? It was something good for us. And um, well, I'll tell you what, in the months afterwards, he would be looking over, like he'd come over to the office, and he'd ask me, Are you praying for those those people, those little people like you prayed for me? And I went, Yes, I am. I'm gonna pray for you while you're praying for them. And I'm like, Okay, but they didn't have the murderous spirit. Now they did have to have some strong boundaries where that that spirit wasn't allowed to come back. These were parents of very strong boundaries, and I will tell you that this young man, I believe this year is finishing his first year of college. You know, he does not have a spirit of anger or murder on him anymore. But that yeah, something that had to be taken care of when he was little like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:20

Yeah. It just shows you how this can all happen at such a young age. And I don't I don't think sometimes we're paying attention to what's really going on.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Well, I think with the little ones, you have to be careful because if it's in the bloodline, it'll visit them a different way. Sure. It's familiar, it's definitely familiar. I mean, you can see it. You just have to pay attention, but but I I think with some of the things that are coming in now with with anger and violence and hatred, because it's a spirit of hatred that's at the root of war. Because if you look back to Cain and Abel, Isaac and Ishmael, Esau and Jacob, in Ezekiel 35, verse 5, it says it was this basically the sword, the war, the blood, and the ancient hatred. So I have to believe that hatred over perceived rejection is at the root of just about everything. So those two places, if you can get to them early enough and sever that assignment, um, but a lot of times this is just being encouraged and and grown, and it's in the parents. And the parents, because they're angry and they, you know, they they have like, you know, they'll they'll spank and hit and anger, and and then they they bring the kids in and they want me to fix it. And I and I and I have to tell you, the reason why it worked with this young man is his parents had both been through deliverance, they both understood deliverance, and they both had very good boundaries. Because the spirits, if you take a child through deliverance, those spirits are going to come back and test the parents to try to get a negotiable breach so that it it can just return and manipulate. So the home the home has to be in order. And what I found is the father is really important. Not that that says if the child's father is not in the home, he can't go through deliverance, but uh, if he is present, it is it is a big key.

SPEAKER_04 31:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

But one parent at least has to go through the process to be able to handle the warfare on the other side.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

I absolutely completely agree. So can we unpack some of the lies that people believe which really cause different routes to take place? I'm wondering about things like fear and OCD. And that goes back to what you were speaking about before, where these lies are really being sent through the generations. And part of the reason I'm I'm asking is honestly due to my own family. Like my I I dearly love my parents, dearly love them when I say this. They're in their 70s and everything, but uh my mother has severe OCD and she's never been treated for it. And I can see it starting to impact my kids a little bit. And so I have to talk to my kids all the time of like, well, we don't fear and we don't do the, you know, like talk through boundaries and things of that nature. And so I see how this impacts, you know, families and stuff like that. And and it comes back to the boundaries that you're talking about, having really strong boundaries and things of that nature. So I'm just wondering, like, what are these lies that are getting into people's minds, you know, that are causing this to happen?

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Well, with fear, I think what I hear a lot when people come into the office, oh well, I'm my family, all my families are worriers. I was born into a family of worry wards. Fear fear is just you know part of how we roll. Or if you know, like different cultures you're here, well, we all yell. We're all just yellers. That's just who we are. So there's there's like an agreement of sorts to the spirit because it's familiar and it it's found a way to get in. Yeah. I think you know, when you look at how how I say it's usually based on our own agreements. Like I had to teach an entire group of Baptists. I'm sure a lot of them will hear this because they're pretty well known. But they but they would say to me, we have authority. These spirits don't have any, um they, you know, we we have authority over them. We're we're blood bought believers. And I'm like, 100%, I totally agree, until we give them authority and we come into agreement with them. Like, um, uh like when you say I am afraid, yeah, you you're taking the name of God and you're attaching a spirit of fear to it. So it has it's more of an agreement to an identity. I am afraid, I am sick, I am depressed, I am fat, ugly, um, not not respected, or I am rejected. You know, when you come into those, those, those ideologies and those agreements, there's agreements that allow this. Like I when I that fear came in through a movie screen with me, I am so afraid, you know. I and you know, because it was very much around me and I didn't have any skills to war. Nobody, nobody taught us how to war when we were little. I mean, these things came in and started that route, just like the girl in the closet with the claustrophobia. So yeah, I would say, you know, I would always say, like, how these things come down, it's just it's it's unique to you, but it's not it's not that new in the demonic realm. Because he'll use the same pattern over and over and over again. I would say the pattern, if you wanted to know the original stronghold in the garden, is perceived rejection. So I think that's at the root of everything because Eve was not rejected, but the enemy convinced her she was. So that perception of rejection got her to sin. And then it said immediately shame came in, right? And then, of course, their entire intimacy with the Lord was completely cut off. These were people that lived in the spaces where you and I get moments with God that are so overwhelming and intimate. They had that 24-7, and then it was completely gone. So, to put that in perspective, they were shocked, they felt abandoned, cut off. They knew they were naked. Now they could see with their eyes, they hid, and they didn't trust when God walked in the garden to say, Adam, where are you? So the original stronghold, that basic solid foundation the enemy plowed was with rejection, abandonment, isolation, distrust, and from that place you grow fear, depression, and all the others. But that's that's the root of it and where it all starts. And I would say I haven't met anybody that came in that didn't have that, whether it's family or peers, or just that that's where that fear will be birthed, is out of that rejection.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

That's a very good word. So can you speak to what prevents healing in people? I really thought one of the things that you said in your articles, I just thought was very eye-opening, is that people don't think infirmity they don't think of it as an idol, but that it has a loud voice and that pain screams over the truth of your healing. And so, yeah, I would just love to have you speak to that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Well, I get scolded on that pretty hardcore from my pastor because she walks with great faith and and and she knows that Jesus, everyone that they brought to him was healed. I mean, there's outside things where it's not our fault. I mean, you can see the man in the in the Bible who was blind and and it wasn't it wasn't his fault. It wasn't anything that he did. I mean, that was just something. And and and so there's so many different, I'm not gonna put it all on open doors, but but what you're saying is true because I remember sitting in church in extreme back pain, and we were we were praying for one another, and the pain immediately left, and I was blown away that the pain was completely gone. And my pastor and I were driving somewhere afterwards for lunch. And I said, Well, you know what the interesting thing is, the minute I got off church property, that pain came right back. And she just looked at me and she goes, Are you gonna come into agreement with it? And I went, Excuse me. And she said, You know, like if you got free in there and that spirit of pain is just coming back now, it's mocking you for you to come back into agreement with it to accept the infirmity back. And I I will tell you, Heather, that was not the first time because I had I was flat on my back with migraines in 2011, almost non-functional, and had every friend of mine who is really powerful and in healing, and and and every time they'd pray for me, it would get worse. And literally, it came out of my mouth the last time. And I said, You know, every time you guys pray for me, it gets worse. And I heard it, and I was driving home and I had to repent. I'm like, Lord, I am so sorry for coming into agreement with that. This is mocking me, it is mocking me, and I screamed at the top of my lungs. I command this mocking spirit of pain, this lying spirit of pain to loose me in the name of Jesus. And it left, and I was like, wow, I can't believe I can't, you know, I would have almost wanted to go into a little bit of self-condemnation. Like, what why didn't I pick up on that earlier? But the enemy mocks. Same thing. I was in, I was in, I was, I I had broken my leg and was I walked, I was went in in a I went in in a wheelchair to an I International Society of Deliverance Ministers Conference, and I walked out and I got in the car and and I felt it start to come back, and I just had to rebuke it. And it was like, no, you have no portion over me anymore. That I'm healed. So I do think that I do think when I when I made that comment on my Facebook page at that particular time, that I think that pain can be an idol, and I got attacked by a lot of my secular friends because they thought that I was saying that they liked their spirits of infirmity and that they worship them. And I went, no, no, that's not what I'm getting at. When I say idol, I mean something that takes away your focus on the Lord, something that screams louder than your ability to concentrate or focus. And I think pain has a loud voice, and I think it can be an idol that can scream pretty loud that we need to get rid of. Because it's gonna it's gonna want to steal your focus.

SPEAKER_04 39:48

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And keep you from walking forward in healing, which is where the enemy wants to keep you. 100%. Yeah. So if you could tell someone to chase after Jesus and pursue redemption, what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 40:08

I would say from the perspective of deliverance, I think we have to realize that we're all in a war. I used to always say, we're in a battle, our sides won, and we have the victory, but we are in a war. I think I've had some recent conversations with some young people that have said, I'm really, I really wish I never learned about demons, because ever since I've learned about anything about spiritual warfare, now I'm in this battle and I just want to go back to the way I was. And I'm like, well, you know, like I don't know. I mean, like, if your eyes are open to the Holy Spirit, you know, you're in a war. I mean, I don't know anywhere in the Bible where there wasn't war and contending, but our sides won. But the the run to Jesus part is he he's the he's the king of kings and the great soul, the great warrior. He's the one that's coming back. We're being trained here for whatever we're gonna do to rule and reign with him. And it's not really when you learn how to war, it's just that while we're here on earth, this time on earth, this this paraphrase or parentheses is for us for our hands to be trained in war. You know, I think it's that second chronicles 20, verse 15 and 16, which says, you know, the battle belongs to the war, and then immediately it says, but go take your place on the front line, right? And so I know I know we've got to learn this. We've got to learn this because whatever we're being equipped with here is how we're gonna how we're gonna war there. And that equipping is like you mentioned Charlie Kirk earlier, that equipping is learning how to be a bold warrior for Christ and stand on the front line and and not and not get taken out by the demonic realm. And so, you know, we gotta learn, gotta run to Jesus. The only way you're gonna do it is through the Holy Spirit, power of the Holy Spirit, and that and that, and that, and the teaching and training that's in his word. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:08

Well, Phyllis, thank you so much for coming on today. This was very eye-opening, and I know our audience is gonna love it.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Here I am to the rhythm. Here I am. In the straw. Just into the rhythm of Here I am.