SPEAKER_03 0:07

Nathan Affafiel and Chris Ayub from the religion business talk about their seven-part docuseries shedding light on some of the most influential religious institutions in the world. They also have a new app called Broken Shepherds highlighting the organizational abuses going on in churches and institutions in the United States.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Chris, take it away, brother.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Yeah, so I've always considered myself a Christian, right? I've always been a believer as long as my memory dates. I was raised Catholic. Um, and then I I started trying a bunch of different uh churches, different denominations, Baptists, Pentecostal Assemblies of God, um, you know, mega churches. I've I've tried quite quite quite a bit. And um, you know, I always considered myself um, again, a a Christian, right? Like, hey, I believed in, I believe that, you know, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. I believe that you know he died for our sins, that he's a son of God, son of the Father. And and in all that, you know, I had this realization probably over this past year, I never really truly knew what it meant to pick up your cross and follow Christ. Because everything I just mentioned is that the devil believes that as well, too, about Jesus.

SPEAKER_05 2:24

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

And so the difference is a lot of a lot of Christians, we don't pick up our cross. And for so much of my life, I wasn't picking up the cross. I didn't even know what it really truly meant. And part of that is I was scared to know what it meant because being a Christian is is dangerous. So, you know, here I am, 45, and um putting put a lot of my my personal net worth into this this project with Nathan. Um, and it's dangerous, right? There are a lot of people who don't want us to exist.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

Yeah, absolutely. What about you, Nathan?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah, I was born and raised in kind of your standard non-denominational megachurch, you know, in Los Angeles. Uh the church averaged about 2,000 members. So it was a mega church, but it wasn't a massive, you know, um 20,000 seat venue, like a gateway. Um, but yeah, I was just raised in the system. I was at church probably four nights a week. You know, my parents sing in choir, I sang in choir, we did iwanas. Um, we went to multiple two, you know, two services every Sunday because my parents sang in the choir. And so I was born and then just literally plugged into the in the literal building. And I knew by by I always laugh because when I was like nine years old, I knew every square inch of this building. We could get under the the choir stages and we would unplug the XLR mics as people were singing. We were just the the problem children, so to speak, because we just lived there. Um and I loved it though. You know, I loved Iwanas. And if people if you don't know what I wanna's is, it's like a kid's games basically where you do three-legged races and you know, it's it's amazing. Um, and then I went to every Christian summer camp in California you could name, you know, and um I would meet girlfriends there. Just my life was just like, you know, involved in the system, and uh and I loved it. Um and my youth pastor, my which was my junior high youth pastor, and then became my high school pastor, was being primed to take over the megachurch that that I went to in San Diego and um and my family went to. And I loved him. He was one of my mentors. Uh and then in my early 20s, I started volunteering um as a youth pastor. Uh, and then I would travel for work. I got into TV when I was 16 because of a head injury or into movie making. And um very within two years, I just obsessed about things. And so within two years, I was working for Oakley, um, the sunglass company, and I was traveling the world for Oakley. So we would go to all these really remote places, um, mostly developing nations, and uh, and I'd spend, you know, a month in Brazil, or you know, two weeks in Australia, um, you know, or I'd go to Honduras for for ten days, and so I'd spend a lot of time in these uh communities, and so I'd always want to go to a church or seminary just to kind of see the flare of of kind of global Christianity. And the more time I spent overseas, which was about nine months out of every year, I would just be traveling. Um I would come back and I'd go to church and I just didn't I I didn't feel the energy I would feel in these tin roof, you know, open air dirt floor churches. And then I'd go visit seminaries that were totally self-sufficient, they never accepted a dollar from donations. And I just started seeing these different models, and I'd come back and be like, Man, this institution's so expensive and it requires so much financial capital. Like, what are we building? And then everything kind of came to a head in my mid-20s. Um, my youth pastor that I was referring to uh ended up having, I think it was 14 counts of sexual abuse against him, uh, and he's in jail to this day. And it was and it was against his own adopted children. Um, and this guy was in the system for 20 years, and I'd go on camping trips with this guy. And, you know, we this morning I was on a radio station in Oregon. We were talking about this idea of we just hand our kids over and abdicate the role of being a parent because we see, oh, this youth pastor is gonna do it for us. But I'm like, that's a very dangerous precedent because yeah, teaching my daughter biblical like scripture is really difficult. And then later on that, if I'm not living out that message, man, I'd rather push my daughter off to be, you know, to learn from someone else, but it creates opportunities for abuse. So in my mid-20s, there was the sexual abuse side, and then there was the financial abuse side, and that's where I started saying, okay, I want to dissect this. And I've always been a as a documentary filmmaker, I've always kind of pushed the boundaries on why. Sure. And so I just started peeling back the onion. And as soon as you do that, or maybe a rat the rabbit hole is a better analogy, but as soon as you stick your head down this rabbit hole, that whatever that energy is just grabs you and yanks you into it. Um, and so I bought the domain, the religion business, and when I was 25, so 15 years ago. Um and and I yeah, and I started researching it. I didn't know what it would be. I'm like, maybe it's gonna be a book, maybe it'll be a documentary, I don't know. Um and then on my like faith journey, I just finally started the the simplest thing is in my late 20s, I'm like, man, if I really want to do a show called The Religion Business, I should read the book, call it the Bible, you know, from cover to cover. And uh that's what I started doing is I just picked up the Bible and read it cover to cover without any preconceived approach to it. And I think this is I love encouraging people to do this. Like, open the Bible in Genesis 1.1, go all the way through Revelation, and don't try to have don't even try to learn, just read it. And that's how the scripture starts speaking to you because that first pass, all of a sudden, since I I wasn't trying to say, how can I relate to this or what verse can I apply to my life? I started reading it and I realized I'm reading it like a history book. And it is the history of humanity. And so I read the full first pass as a history lesson, and that's where I was like, wow, this is a really interesting journey from Genesis to Revelation. And then I did another pass, and and I've probably passed through the entire Bible cover to cover eight or ten times now, and then the gospels alone, probably twenty. This last year I just would read the gospels because I want to I want to be able to quote Christ word for word in the gospels. Um and then I read all the supporting you know, Apocrypha literature, and then I read the early apostolic writings like the Didic, and I started getting this really let's call it global snapshot of my faith. And then I I woke up probably five years ago, and for the first time I said, Wow, my faith is my own. It's not what I'm hearing from a pulpit. This is my own, and my goodness is Christ my savior, you know? And and so that's my faith journey. And uh, and then about that same time, uh, I was working in the commercial world. Um, we had moved to Utah, and so my commercial clients dried up partially. And I'm like, okay, it's like, God, you're opening this door to start the religion business again. I had sold a piece of real estate. So I'm like, okay, I got some capital, let's get back into this. And uh, so that was about four, four and a half years ago. Okay. Um, and we just I started filming, and then about two years and what three months, Chris, two and a half years ago, um, I had I had, you know, blown through the cash on hand that I had for the show. And then God had just like we always say it's a series of breadcrumbs. Um, I had this vision for a solution, which is broken shepherds to solve a lot of these problems. And and so I was like, okay, now is the time I need a strategic partner, not only a capital partner, but a a brother in the trenches who's ready to take like physical and emotional and intellectual and spiritual blows because I was having a lot of headwind at that point. Um and so I built a little pitch deck and through a serendipitous connection, I met Chris and um and we've only ever looked forward since. And he's my brother, and um God's walked us to to this podcast. And uh it's been an amazing journey to get here, and I can I love it because Chris is lit my literal brother in Christ, and you know, to see his faith grow over the last two and a half years and and mine, it's just incredible.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

That is really incredible. I I love the breadcomb analogy throughout the whole thing. So maybe Chris, tell us a little bit about your career. Nathan let us know about his. So how did you sort of parlay into all of this?

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Uh yeah, so I went to the Air Force Academy. I was like my my dad's from Lebanon, my mom's from Puerto Rico, and growing up, Lebanon was in a was in a civil war.

SPEAKER_05 11:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

And so I used to just like watch the news and see what was going on there, and and and so I had a an appreciation for freedom at a pretty young age, and I wanted to, I wanted to serve my my country. So I went to the Air Force Academy, graduated there, um, was named uh Air Force Cadet of the Year, got to go to the White House, and and the they put a sword, there's a sword of the Pentagon with my name on it, and it was like, and I I I was it was it was a lot for someone at a young age to have that kind of level of like success. I didn't really handle it, handle it that well. So I there was a lot of learning lessons there as well, too, for me. And then um I actually got out of the Air Force, went into the reserves, and I finished up my MBA. I was working with Morgan Stanley, Great Recession hit, and so I like that was uh a wild experience for me as well, too. So it was like I just went from I was in Iraq, I did 64 missions, combat missions there, and uh, and then like I'm this I I thought I was still in war, like being in the in the Great Recession working for a Wall Street firm. And then um I got activated, and when I got activated, um, this concept of like community, right? I didn't have that anywhere, and I couldn't find it anywhere, and that community was so amazing in the military. You know, you you had your friends, people that you, you know, your battle buddies, if you will, and this level of vulnerability you're able to have and all that. It was real, real community, and that stuck stuck with me. I missed that so much that I I cross-commissioned into the army. And uh fast forward uh a couple years later, I was at the JFK Special Warfare Center. I got I went through selection for Special Operations Forces, Civil Affairs, did really well there. And then a week before graduation, I got injured. Seven of us ended up in the hospital with in a in an incident, and then um, and then I ended up getting medically discharged, and then back into the corporate world and such. So I went and worked at KPMG, Old Republic International, and then um I was at Old Republic International, I was the COO of one of their subsidiaries, and we were taken to market uh and we were six one of the first. Uh this is when all the dot, like Dot-Frank and all these other, and then uh, you know, the um after cleaning up the mess from 2008, 2009, the transparency, the consumer financial protection bureau, digital real estate transaction. So we were we we we was one of the first to get a pilot with the CFPB, and then uh one of the first to do an actual real estate closing transaction. And then um I got picked up by a company called Real Manage. I was the president of that company for eight years and uh grew that company and had a lot of fun doing it, did about 20 in my career, done about 20 mergers and acquisitions type transactions. And it it was at a point where I was tired of, in a sense, of being in the matrix, if you will. Like sure. I couldn't say what I wanted to say. I I I was I was it wasn't my company, you know, I only I only had uh you know a small say in it, a small stake in it. And um, and so great business. I just I was just like I wanted to be able to speak my mind, and I felt like my soul was like I was so torn between this concept of like chasing, you know, how many more cents can you get out of a dollar, right? To to doing something good for humanity, and it was a battle for me. So I stepped aside from the day-to-day of that, and um, in my search for doing good, I was going through a lot of my own personal life at that time and cleaning up a a mess that I had made in my life of chasing the world. And um, God did a lot of work with me in that period of time, and that's how I ended up meeting Nathan. And I was excited about this project, not because we were doing this you know expl exploration into this you know trillion plus dollar empire uh annually, but it was the concept of like the solution side of it where no problems get solved in this in in our world with you know world hunger, uh homelessness, all the mental health crisis, all these crises. You know, there's a uh Rahm Emanuel said us once never let a good crisis go to waste. Crisis is what people in this world get excited about making money off of. So if you solve for these things, the money stops coming in. But as a result, the US government spends $7 trillion a year. The nonprofit sector is about $1.5 trillion a year, and we have all this human and financial capital, yet we're not solving these social issues. And so long-term vision and what Nate was talking about with Broken Shepherds is that Nate, in his exploration of you know, 15 years practically, discovered 10 loopholes within the system where all this fraud, waste, abuse, and ennurement happens. A secular nonprofit turns a 990 into the IRS. So there's some level of transparency there. So there is accountability of some sort. Religious organizations don't have to turn anything in. So the the that is where like a lot of this happens. There's no transparency, so there can't be accountability. So until the day in which like the concept of Broken Shepherds is to close these loopholes by or actually shine a light into them and then and then uh give nonprofits the opportunity to be transparent with prospective donors and members of of their congregation or prospective members of their congregation as well as nonprofits to uh to actually actually show how this is how their money is being used, because until we end up to a point, and this is it takes a while, this is a $1.5 trillion river, and that money has to not get stopped. You know, we encourage generous giving with transparency. We encourage one's relationship with God, but that money has to start going to impact.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

Absolutely. Right?

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Because we keep spending, spending, spending, and raising, raising, raising without any really true impact. There's some impact because say, hey, we're working on these issues. You see, we fed this many people and all that kind of stuff, but it's not getting solved. So at the end of the day, our overall goal long term is to our platform to be the open source accounting for the for the public, the members, the donors to see how every dollar is being spent. And then we can start measuring impact. And when you do that, you'll have human flourishing. And we're far, we're far from that. This is a long, this is a long journey. This river is powerful.

SPEAKER_03 17:42

Yeah. It's a powerful river, but it's been going on a really long time. So you're solving a very long old crisis. So maybe break that down a little bit. You guys have talked a little bit about the religion business and then the broken shepherds, and and tell the audience what's the difference between the documentary and then the business that you guys have set up and the app.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Yeah, Nathan, you want to kick off with the problem?

SPEAKER_01 18:03

So the docuseries is a seven-part docuseries, um, and it breaks down the legal architecture in the US. So uh, like Chris said, uh on the journey, I kind of I started discovering and kind of seeing patterns in the system. Because for years I would just travel the US when I would travel for work, and I'd I wanted I always say I wanted to taste the kaleidoscope of American Christianity. So I wanted to go around and just see what American Christianity was. Um and I started seeing patterns in these institutions. And so that's where these loopholes started to show themselves. Uh and so the series looks at the loopholes, but uh, there's a great there's a great story about building your house on rock, right? You don't want to build your house on sand, you want to build it on rock. And so I wanted to see what this house, what this what the religious exemptions in the US, that's what the house is, is built on. And that's built on IRS regulation and precedent. So the show looks at the IRS regulation that underpins this trillion dollar or you know, $1.5 trillion sector potentially. Um and so we go to the bedrock and then we just uh basically extrapolate out to so the bedrock is high level, 35,000 foot. Here's the legal architecture, then we start drilling down. And um, so drilling down takes hours. So the show's about six and a half hours. Um, and then we also have to go back to history because most religious institutions, Christian institutions, fund their practice off this idea of tithe. This 10 this I ironically, there was a church today that I was talking about um on this radio station, and uh they on their on their website it says, We believe in tithe, you know, and it says tithe is 10% of your income. That that is literally the statement on the website. And so we have to dissect that. And what that means is I got to sit down with Christian and Jewish scholars and that that track you back through the history of this this idea of tithe, because most people and most institutions, just like the church I just referenced, have a misguided at best view of of the tithe. And so that's one thing we want to present in the show is what is the actual purpose of this mosaic tithe? Why did Melchizedek or why did Abraham give a uh um a tithe to Melchizedek? What's the purpose of all of this and how does that relate to modern day? Um, because that's a crucial um educational curve that has to happen if we want to if we want to understand how we've gotten to the issue we have today, which is a trillion dollars flushing in and no one knows really where it goes. And for every dollar that goes into the top of the Christian machine, a couple pennies pop out the bottom for actual impact in regards to like let's say what Matthew 25 says, and we go, man, look at those two cents, right? Look at all the good we've done. And so that's the show is it's saying, man, the model is kind of flipped and backwards at this point. Um, and why is that? And then the solution or a solution is what we've built or are what we're building with Broken Shepherds and we're in beta on right now.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

So Broken Shepherds is, I mean, at a high level, it's a transparency, engagement, donation, and volunteer platform. So Nathan and I scraped the federal and state databases and we pulled in 1.9 million nonprofits. Pretty much all those that are accepting donations.

SPEAKER_05 21:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

And and so um, this is an environment where donors, members, congregants, prospective ones as well, can match up with these 1.9 million nonprofits. So a nonprofit is in the system, it can it would need to go in there to claim their profile. And then when they claim their profile, we ask them uh you know pertinent questions and ask their pertinent data. And you know, things like revenue, pastor's name, exactly. Executive director's name, board members. Um, you know, how well how do your expenses break up in this category? What are you doing for missions and programs? And uh, do you take a housing allowance? Do you guys fly private? Like those types of questions. Now, here's the thing: we don't have a bias towards anything. So we're not here to be the arbiter of what a pastor or an executive director of a nonprofit should make. We just want them to be open and transparent. So, for example, if a pastor takes $500,000 a year in housing allowance or takes nothing in housing allowance, as long as they provide data, we're they're gonna get the same. We have a light rating that goes from zero to 10. It's a transparency rating. They're gonna get the same incremental amount of points for the data. We're not saying, oh, nope, you shouldn't be getting that much. The problem with the system today is on the other end, these members and donors that come in and have their profiles and they're seeking nonprofits or they're to to participate with based on their interest, sure, or they're geographically in an area where there's churches and they want to they want to go to a church, or they just moved, or they want to see different churches in their area, they'll be able to see, and it's sorted by light rating, by transparency. And so they have an opportunity because the power is not so ahead, Nathan.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

This is a really big point. So from a really high level, Broken Shepherds is democracy in the nonprofit sector. So it gives power to the it gives power to the donor, and it's a tra and the the backbone of it is a transparency rating that the more accountable you are and transparent with your resources, the higher you rank, okay, which means we put more donors and congregants in front of you.

SPEAKER_05 23:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

So no longer is it about how much you can market or how flashy you are, it's about how accountable and transparent you are with donor resources. So I just wanted to give you the the high-level overview of Broken Shepherds. And then Chris is talking about the nuance of it and the impact that it'll actually have.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

So you're saying though that a church or a nonprofit needs to go in and basically claim their profile, like Apple business maps.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

Correct. They need to go in there and claim claim their profile. And then even like if you look in the housing side, right? Like if you're if you're on a realtor.com or a Zilla, right? Like claim this house because there's data out there on you. So we'll we'll talk about the data that's that could be out there. So um people, individuals that download the Broken Shepherds app have the ability, if they have known information on a nonprofit or religious organization, they know what the revenue is, what the pastor's name is, expenses, housing allowances, and things of that sort. They have the ability to go in there and start populating that data. Now it'll be marked as unverified because the organization hasn't claimed it, but we uh are encouraging people to do that because the way the system is today, there's not really an incentive for religious organizations, especially to go in there and be transparent because the transparency of this platform enables the body to hold the organization accountable. And that's a very scary thing. The wicked love the dark, they don't love the light. And so it's a very it's a very scary thing. So we are encouraging people and anyone who's listening, if you have known information, go into Broken Shepherds and start, you know, type in the organization in the search bar and uh find your match with it and start entering data in because that will eventually put pressure as the body of Christ rises and starts to shine a light on this, the light, and then that will force psychologically, will force it organizations. Yeah, Nathan, good choice of word. It'll it will encourage and I'm saying I I use the term force from a standpoint of like until the river starts shifting to transparent organizations, the ones that aren't transparent or aren't operating with integrity don't have an incentive or a reason to change their practices or be transparent. They're still receiving an abundant amount of money.

SPEAKER_03 26:09

Yeah. Yeah. And so speaking of that, what were some of your favorite stories to film? Or what sort of story surprised you the most from like an investigation standpoint? Yeah, from an investigation standpoint out of the the seven, seven episodes.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

All of them were so unique, right? And this is one thing that Chris and I always say we didn't like choose our targets, so to speak, or or choose the invest the entity we were gonna explore and look at the data on.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

It's again, it's this idea of breadcrumbs takes me back to you know the Israelites leaving Egypt and how Mana was placed in front of them every day. Sure. It's like that's the same kind of thing. And and so all the investigations in the show were strictly were strictly um brought to light because of some breadcrumb along the way, whether that be through Chris's relationships like Mac Hammond. You know, Chris had an outside relationship with with his team, and he just reached out saying, hey, like I'd love the chat. And that's how that story came about. And then um Ed Young, like I just was in Texas visiting my dad, and I wanted to go to church, and so I showed up at Ed's and my catalytic converter got cut out of my car. So that's what started that. Okay, Kenneth Copeland, we had evidence put in front of us. So every story is so unique in in front of it in their unique in regards to specific loopholes, right? Um, my favorite stuff that I learned to be honest was um the historical side of Christianity because it deepens my faith, you know, so it personally affects me. Um but there's a lot of stuff that was so wild that didn't even make the show. Because I because we believe we thought people wouldn't even believe it. They'd say, ah, these guys are just lying at this point. And I'm talking about like gun running on private uh private evangelist planes, you know, running guns between the Middle East and America, running drugs between the Middle East and like data on this stuff. We have money drops in the Cayman Islands, you know, on private jets. We have literal murder, um, poisoning and murder, and we have all this evidence, but to me, it just and to Chris, it was just almost fanciful. People would be like, this doesn't happen in the Christian space, you know. And so that's where it like blew my lid is when I'm like, oh, there's literal people in the name of Christ killing people um to protect their brand and their institution. And then and then at the same time, they'll carry Bibles on their private jets to go preach in in Africa or the Middle East, and then they're flying drug, they're drug running back, you know, all in the name of Jesus. It's fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

That is fascinating. Do you have a favorite story, Chris? Or is there one that you loved?

SPEAKER_02 29:03

I really uh I really loved um uh Nathan touched on it, and and it was this concept of like, Nathan's just going to to a church, like on a Sunday.

SPEAKER_05 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

And his Cadillac converter got stolen. So he was uh to to get supporting evidence to the for the insurance company, he reached out to them to ask them for uh video footage and called them and everything, and no one would respond. So then one day, the breadcrumb of why don't you why don't you reach out to them about donating? And then all of a sudden it's oh, you we can we can take forms in real estate, you know, stock, uh cash, like you name it, like this structured, like just like checklist of different ways you could donate and give, but not to support somebody who had their Cadillac converter stolen there. And then that just opened up. I mean, a massive amount. I mean, that rabbit hole is so deep. And again, um we we you know, referencing uh Paul in the in the in the Bible about uh giving people milk, right? Because they're not ready yet for like this this stuff is some very thick food.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

Yeah, that's a very good reference.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

So how much do you guys, or were you able to really delve into the Ravi Zachariah story and the impact that that had on his ministry? And I'm also wondering, because of the way his ministry was set up and the way it was classified, did that cause some of the problems that happened?

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Yeah, you know, Ruth, we got to tell Ruth Malhorta's story. That was like, you know, we're the first team to publicly get to tell her story. Sure. Um RZIM is a is a Julie Royce says it best, it's a tale of warning for nonprofits, right? Because in 2015 they were classified as a nonprofit, a standard nonprofit, which means you have to file a 990 with the IRS, and it's just an informational sheet on your money. On what, you know, I think his average budget was about $40 million a year in donor funds. So where does where does this $40 million go? Well, he petitioned the IRS to become an association of churches, which that term has no legal definition with the IRS. So there's no definition for an association, convention, or auxiliary. So almost anything can be classified as as an auxiliary, which you have a $265 billion hedge fund registered as an auxiliary. So that's a church. You have an association in conventions. Um well, they petitioned the IRS to become an association and they got it. So they got that classification, which means, hey, you have officially moved from a secular nonprofit that needs to file a 990 to now the IRS sees you as a religious organization. You do not have to file a 990. That switch means your financials go opaque. So that 40 million a year that they have coming in, now no one knows where that 40 million a year goes. Now, because you switch from a 990 to no 990, you also don't have to um uh publicly display who your board of directors are. So who is actually running this organization now? No one knows. So what happens is, and we've seen this heavily in our research, is boards start becoming almost family dynasties or friend, you know, close friend circles. Yep. And so no longer is it a board that's that is there, and a board of directors is there to protect the organization from its leadership. That is the point of a board of directors. It's supposed to steer the ship. And hey, if there's a rogue CEO out there hemorrhaging money, the board of directors is supposed to be able to curtail them and yank them back, right? And so what happens when you have a board of directors that is now uh a bias board that is there potentially to use that institution for their own enuarement and benefit? Sure. Um, so that's what happened with with RZIM. Ravi was on his board, his wife was on his board, his daughter was on his board, two of their biggest donors, a couple of their biggest donors were on the boards, on the board. So at what point does it just become this 40 million is now for us to use and move around the way we see fit? Sure. And okay, when you have no external accountability from a financial side now, it empowers abuse. So if you're an abusive person, or even if you're just a human, and we always say humans are getting human, if I have access to $40 million a year with no oversight, odds are eventually I'm gonna start abusing that money. That's just it's it's human nature. And so that's why RZIM is such a tail of warning, because okay, Ravi gets aggressive and starts flirting and starts sexting with women. Oh, well, they're they're threatening to expose you. Okay, well, we're just gonna pay them off. And so that 40 million now becomes a tool, a weapon to literally enable abuse, whether that be financial, sexual, authoritarian, you name it. Um, and so RZIM is kind of a a prime example of what happens when when you move from an accountable system that's definitely not perfect with a 990, but to an opaque, dark system, is the whole system corrupts. You know, it's a it's like a virus or a cancer. Once that cancer sets up, the whole system is gonna die eventually. And that's what we saw with RZIM.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

Yeah. So maybe speak a little bit to some of the spiritual abuse you saw at play in the different organizations and churches. And is this a problem that's going on mainly in the West? Or is this a problem worldwide?

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Um, I I can't speak globally, um, because I'll just say humans will human, but this this newer Americana and Christian model is being exported to the developing nations in the world, which is having detrimental effects. You know, like you can preach prosperity all day long and tithe here in America. The average American has disposable income. So if you, you know, if you're kind of getting suckered by a prosperity scammer, you could still put food on the table for your children, most likely. But if you're in like, let's say, Africa and you're making $2 a day and your pastor is selling you holy rice and holy water for a dollar a day, you know, and telling you you're gonna be blessed because of it, this American I Americana Christianity is just having devastating effects on the poorest communities in the world. And so, you know, in the Gospels, um, it talks about, you know, devouring widows' houses. Like, you know, the the Pharisees and Sadducees would devour widows' houses in the name of salvation. And that's what we're seeing is these pastors go over, usually find a local counterpart and devour widows' houses, devour the poorest people's houses, all in the name of Christ. I mean, the sad I crazy part to me is they fly back and they stand on their stage and go, We saved 6,000 people. Praise God. And you're like, What are you? You're selling a totally false gospel. You just abused an entire population. Um, and so from the the the spiritual abuse side, that's more it.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

I think it sort of goes hand in hand, right? So if you're abusing money, at some point you're going to perpetrate some sort of abuse either on your congregation or on people that are in your lives. And so I think that's how some of this is getting perpetrated too.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Address is the root of all evil.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and this idea of you know, anointing, it's once I think I am superior to you, there is a direct avenue for abuse, whatever that be, spiritual, sexual, financial. Once I think I am above you, and I think that's why in the gospels, Christ says, Don't call anyone teacher. There's only one teacher. You know, he even says, I'm not good. There's only one good, you know? Yeah. And it's like, because we're as soon as you have hierarchy in the Christian faith, that's when abuse happens. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

Okay. Well, one of my favorite stories out of this whole thing was um Sister Rosemary. Like she was just absolute delight. You could tell she was as genuine, as genuine as possible, and obviously loves the Lord. Are there ways that people can go about like supporting her and the work that she's doing in Uganda and Sudan?

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Yes. So that's what we're Broken Shepherds is going to be this solution as well. Okay. Um, the hard part is getting money to organizations overseas. And so usually there's middlemen. So, like, you know, they'll they'll work with a charity here in the US and the charity will collect for them. But I they've even told me this where you know they'll have American organizations say we want to raise you money. They raise money, um, and sometimes not even a dollar gets back to Uganda. And so there's a systemic problem on the the flow of funds. And there's just middlemen in there, you know, taking 2%, 5%, 10%, 30%, saying we're gonna help you steward these resources. Yeah. One example is um an orphanage over there. Um uh an American church went over and said, Hey, we want to help you raise money, give us photos of the kids so we can hang them, you know, and and and promote your children. So they took photos of every single child. This American church took them, they raised $400,000 for this orphanage. The orphanage never saw a dollar. And yeah, and so it it's since there's no accountability again into the flow of funds, there's just opportunities for people to scrape off the top. And so Sister Rosemary is a dear friend of mine. Will Pastor Wilford's a dear friend of mine now. So we're working closely with Wilfrid actually to figure out how to get, if someone gives you a dollar through Broken Shepherds, that dollar gets directly to you. There's no middleman in involved.

SPEAKER_05 39:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

And so Broken Shepherds will become that because a lot of the good work being done overseas is with individuals like Sister Rosemary and Wilfred. Um, and so it's okay, how does Heather give $100 to Sister Rosemary a month? Well, Broken Shepherds is gonna be that to where they have their actual profile. And so it's just, it's just you you donate and it goes into their account. Donate goes into their account. There's no there's no middleman scraping. That just takes a lot of code and back end. Um, so we're working with a massive payment processor, so one of the biggest in the world, to help us facilitate that. And so that's one big part of Broken Shepherds is removing middlemen out of the equation. It's like, hey, if someone wants to give to someone, that money needs to get there. There's no middlemen. So right now, I would say, how many, Chris? How far out are we from right now? That's why Broken Shepherds is domestic only, because we're working on the international counterpart side of it, but it's a that's a big deal. And so when we're talking about steering a trillion dollars a year, like Chris, that trillion dollar a year river, that's bigger than the US military budget, right? So it's like that's what so we have to get it right because we do want to solve global social issues and we want Broken Shepherds to just be that, be that um that avenue where there's no middlemen anymore. It's and eventually Broken Shepherds will become open source to where every you could you can track every dollar through the whole system and and it's it's pure accountability and transparency.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

And and there's uh Nathan, one of the uh she is more than, right? That's that's in our that's already in Broken Shepherds.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Correct, yeah. She is more than is the um the safe house for girls that have been sex trafficked or or sexually abused in Uganda. They're in our app. Um, they are a US-based organization. And so that's what's cool too, is there are great US-based organizations that work overseas. Um, and so a great way to get money, I'd say almost immediately to Uganda is through Shi is More Then. Okay. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

And Heather, yeah, the um the or one of the organizations that we worked with, the primary one uh that Nathan interfaced with quite a bit, Trinity, they've been a like multi-decade investigation arm into corruption. They've shined a major light into the darkness of the nonprofit sector. And they're also in Broken Shepherds, and they do absolutely amazing work, some of the most beautiful souls like we've we've ever met.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

That's really cool. So, one of the ways that we wrap up our episode every time is we ask if you could tell someone to pursue redemption and chase after Jesus. Like, I know you've gone and investigated all this stuff, but there's gonna be some hope that you know you're doing good work for the Lord. So, how would you encourage someone to chase after Jesus?

SPEAKER_01 41:52

I know what Chris is gonna say. You take it, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Oh, yeah. Okay, I would say the first thing is, uh, and and this, like, there's there was a big study done on this, but the first thing is is to uh read the Bible alone. The second thing is to pray alone to God. And um in doing that, there's a lot of discipline that's there. But um, oftentimes when one says that, they say you're trying to forsake the gathering. No, not at all. In the business world, when we'd have our meetings, what value are you to a meeting or a body of people if you are not a contributor of content and you're simply just consuming? You're an energy vampire if you're doing that. And so um equip yourself because by reading the Bible and praying to God, you'll begin to know people by their fruits. You'll also be able to really quickly go, you know what, that's false gospel. So start start there. Start reading the Bible alone, start praying alone, and go gather up with some uh some fellow people and and you know, Christ will be there with you.

SPEAKER_03 42:56

That's right. Do you have anything to add?

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Yeah, I would just encourage everybody as they're reading their Bible alone and praying alone, um, what is ministry to you? You know, and where like this is where I started finding fulfillment in my calling, was ministry is not working for the institution. My ministry and my capacity was my daughter. That was it. And like as you sl as you focus on your true ministry, which is usually the nuclear family, right? So if we fix that, if people start focusing on that again, then you can slowly expand out. So as you're reading your Bible alone and that book, those scriptures are gonna come to life for you, you're praying alone, um, you're building that one-on-one relationship with your creator, then you start, then at least for me, I was like, man, my only capacity for ministry that I have from a spiritual perspective is my daughter. That's it. I I'm too infantile, and this is of years ago now, I'm too infantile to look past that. So I shrunk my world down to just her. And then what does God do? He like slowly expands your ministry as you gain in wisdom, which is just the fear and Understanding of God, right? And so now my ministry is a handful of individuals and animals right around me, you know, and it's like and goats. And it's like, how do I love on this family unit and this small friend group? And then I woke up and I'm like, whoa, this is church right here, you know? And and and I had a couple friends over the other night. And ironically, Chris, they were listening to the Rechurch podcast. Um, and and they go, Nathan, I want to join your church. And I said, What? What church? And he's like, Well, you said you're gonna start a church. I'm like, I'm gonna start a church, and I'm like, and so, but that immediately gave us this idea to start talking about like we're two more gathered in my name. I'll be there. And all of a sudden, I'm like, we're having church in my living room at 11 p.m. And and it's like all this, it's so it's this organic lead, walk by faith, walk into the unknown, as Sister Rosemary says, and there'll be breadcrumbs there. And sometimes you got to shrink your world down, and I had to shrink it down to just my daughter and I for a long time. And then through you know, through reading scriptures and through prayer, that's when it started to expand. And so uh, and Sister Rosemary says it best. She goes, All you have to do is help is be there for one person. You know, it's and that's how the body of Christ uh in its organism truly takes over the world and brings heaven to earth, and that's where that early church radically transformed Rome. And so if we talk about pursuing redemption, it's going back to the basics and and living that simple life that Paul encouraged us to live. But simple doesn't mean not it doesn't mean it's not impactful, if that makes sense. You can have global impact or impact on a single life. And um so that's what I talk about pursuing redemption. It's you know, you were saved by grace, and you could literally be killing Christians one day and then preaching the gospel the next, you know, as as as Paul did. And so yeah, that's that's pursuing redemption is looking into the unknown and stepping out into it.

SPEAKER_03 46:16

That's an amazing answer. So can you tell everyone how they can stream the services and how they can get the app?

SPEAKER_02 46:23

The religionbusiness.com is where you can stream it today. Uh, we will be on Amazon around Labor Day weekend time frame. Oh, I can't. So call it early by early September. And um and and then um follow us on Instagram. It's at religionbusiness. And uh Broken Shepherds is uh you can if you go to the religionbusiness.com and you and you purchase the show, you can get it through Broken Shepherds, or you can get it straight through the Religion Business.com. So that's one avenue, or go to your Apple or Google store.

SPEAKER_03 46:52

There you go.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

For Broken Shepherds.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

Well, thank you both so much for coming on today. This was a true pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

Yeah, thank you both.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 47:10

Boom boom goes a thumb day. Here I am.

SPEAKER_05 47:22

In the straw. Here I am. In the store, dance into the rhythm of the rain. In the store, judgment to the rhythm of the ray.