SPEAKER_01 0:07

Jody Gowinski and I have a fascinating conversation. We met at Bethel Music Trip in Israel in 2023 and we're immediately connected in the spirit. We discuss her upcoming book, Hidden World of Emotional Abuse and What It Looks Like to Come Out of an Abusive Marriage.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Welcome home, where healing and restoration are celebrated in stories from those who have walked through fire and come out the other side. Welcome to the Pursuing Redemption Podcast with Heather Shore.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Thank you, Jody, for coming on today. We're so excited to have you. Welcome to the Pursuing Redemption Podcast. Thank you for the invite.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Can you tell us a little bit about your testimony of how you came to know Jesus? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

I was eight when when I received Christ as my savior at a church camp. And I remember thinking at that moment, because all I got this warm fuzzy, just this tingling all over my body, and I remember thinking, oh, he is real. And grew up in church. And when I was a teenager, I I walked away from the Lord and came back and completely surrendered myself at 22. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

And so you've been on a wild journey ever since then.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Yes, it's been wild.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

So can you speak a little bit to some of the generational things that you've discovered over the years which really has led you to chasing after Jesus?

SPEAKER_02 2:37

There was always been something in me that's been so deep that of this knowing that there's more, that there's more. How how how do we get there? What does that look like? And along this journey, discovering that as we heal our souls, um you know, it's that freedom that comes, and then you discover how important it is, how the generational um story comes in, and how strong that is.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Yeah, absolutely. Well, maybe speak to a little bit about your marriage and everything, and then having your beautiful children and and how all that has sort of come about.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Wow. Um yes. I uh I was married when I was 18. I found out on my honeymoon that it I was I was gonna be in trouble. It was it was um right off the bat that I realized that um I was stuck. I found I was pregnant on my honeymoon. And so um this, you know, it all came to a head when we were on our honeymoon. And um so the th first three and a half years was really difficult because like I said, you know, his true self showed up first thing. And we had been together for 18 months, dating and engaged all that 18 months, and um that I never saw that, and so it was it was um I'm sorry. Um there was uh I didn't know what it was. Let's just say that. I didn't know what it was, I didn't know how to combat it. I didn't know um, you know, this this all I could think of is this isn't supposed to be how it should be. And with within about three and a half years, I I was determined not to raise my kids in this. This was not gonna happen, but I knew I just couldn't leave. And I did. Um, I actually packed my kids up and left, and he and his family parents hired private investigators to come find me, and they showed up and took my kids. I actually went out of state and um made my way back home and within a couple of weeks he showed up at the door. The there's so much into this, I'll try not to get into too many details because it'd be take up too much time. But um he he said, you know, we can make this work, but in the meantime, I was trying to reach out so that I can have some contact with my kids. One uh my I had an 18-month-old and a three-year-old at the time, and um I was not allowed to talk to them or see them. And he, when he showed up and we're having a discussion, he goes, We can make this work. And I the only reason why I agreed was because nobody else was gonna raise my kids, those were my kids, and I made it very clear of that, and things changed after that. It didn't look the same, let's put it, it didn't look the same, and um, but that was my bottom, that's when I completely surrendered to the Lord. I didn't know how, but I knew God was the answer, and through the years, he taught me how in the surrender, how to love unconditionally the unlovely, and how to bless them and not curse, what it meant, what it looked like to serve. Um, and I got involved with a women's ministry and they took me in at Women's A Glow, it's called the Glow International Now. I grew up in it. Mom mom would go during the summers and would take us kids, so it was something familiar. And um they loved me, and within a year and a half, they actually um brought me on as serving. I've been in ministry for 30 years and started out at the lower level, and then by the time I was 26, I was actually the local president, surrounded by these generals in the face, faith that just poured into me. And in this season, um, God started the healing and growing, and um I didn't, you know, we when we're in the midst, we can't really see the whole picture. We know something's going on, and I remember going through um having access to certain trainings and um for inner healing and leadership, and I remember one time I was talking to somebody in this season, going, God's preparing me for something, can't imagine what, but he is, and I look back now and I marvel at how he healed me from my marriage while I was still in it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

And um I think that's something we had in common because mine's starting the same way, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Yeah, and so just you know, were there regrets? Absolutely, I wasn't perfect, I wasn't a perfect mom. But he uses all things. There is nothing that he can't use and he won't use, and um uh my kids are not walking with the Lord right now. They're older, they're two of them are in their 30s, one's 29. But he's working. He keeps showing me glimpses glimpses and saying, see, I'm still here. And um as difficult as it is to be away from them in this season, he I I almost had to so that he can be there and and do what he needed to do, just like he has done in me in this season. Um and I I'm just in awe of what God has done.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah, yeah. And we're praying for those sweet, you know, kids that you have and those cute little grandkids.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

So we met through the Israel trip with Bethel Music, which was amazing, and everything, and I found out that you were part of their school program, BSSM. So tell us sort of that story of like how that all came about, why you chose BSSM, and how you ended up in Israel.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Um, yeah, I I can't say I'm the one that chose this uh BSSM. Um that was a God thing. Sure. Um, it was on the heels of my divorce and I had like two weeks to get out of the house. I had to sell it because of the divorce. And um just my heart, where I was in my heart, uh it there's a lot of anger, just you know, it was it was not an easy divorce. It's not not that I wanted to stay in an unhealthy marriage anymore, but divorce was not something I ever you know thought that would happen. Sure. And I'm was coming home from work one day and I'm at a stoplight and I hear this, and it was an audible voice saying, now you can go to BSSM. I had been going down for years throughout the years for conferences. I was aware of the school, but I hadn't been for several years. This was in the middle of COVID when this particular encounter happened, and I literally turned around and looked in my back seat. I knew his voice, I knew who it was, and I turned back around and like all I commented was, yeah, like that's gonna happen. Three days later, same stoplight, same voice, now you can go to BSSM. And my response this time was, you don't want this here, there. I have nothing to give, you don't want this there. And the hook was, if you go, I'll heal you. And and so I called a um a friend, my prayer partner, prayer and ministry partner, who had moved to Idaho 10 years prior, and all I said was, hey, I said, I need you to pray about something. And uh, and and I'll call you later. And I hung up, and she called me three days later. She goes, Are you gonna tell me what's going on? And I said, I don't know what you get. She got Genesis 3. And when she she said, I don't know what part in here is for you, but I know something in here is. So she read the whole chapter. And when she got to the part of, you know, God told Abram to go down over the mountains east to Bethel, I I'm like, I just started shaking my head and I waited till she finished because I'm from Oregon originally. That's where I was on the coast. And to get to California from Oregon and Southern, there's several mountains. They're mountain passes that you have to drive over. And when so when you get into Reading, California, Bethel is literally a half a mile east of the highway of I-5. And so it was so precise. And I I went, yeah, and she goes, Okay, what's going on? I said, I think I'm going to Bethel. And she goes, No, you are going to Bethel. And so that was, and when I said yes, my heart was still the same, but I said yes because I trusted him because of what he had brought me through all these years. Um, everything lined up, and I mean, everything lined up so quickly that I found myself down there. And um so as God healed me in my marriage from my marriage, um, he had to get me out of the familiar to heal me from my foundation, my identity from the family stuff, the the roots. And so it took, he worked it. This was this was a whole new level of surrender. A whole, it was um our foundation's our identity, who we are, and we get that from our family, especially specifically from our fathers. And he God kept showing me, I kept getting this vision in the spirit about me covered in concrete. And I finally looked, I finally said, God, what is this? This doesn't make sense. And he said, That's your foundation. And you know, and my flippant response is, well, isn't that supposed to be under me? You know, it's like this, and but it was to it was a great picture of what happens when speak people speak over us. That's not those things that aren't of God. It is, but it becomes us, and it it literally does become our identity, and um, so for 10 weeks there was he kept prompting me to a new level of surrender. Um, and so I'm seeing this in the spirit, but I'm also feeling this heaviness, this place of being stuck in the physical. Um, and I all I could do was cry out, like, how am I supposed to do this? How? You know, I'm physically on the floor on my knees weeping, and for 10 weeks. It was a 10-week process. And um three weeks in there was a speaker, she talked about surrender, and to be honest, it just really ticked me off. I'm like, I don't know what else. I'm here. What else do you want from me? This is where I was at. This is how I went to I'm here. What else do you want from me? And I I said, I don't know what else I could give up. I don't know what else there is to surrender. I all my kids, my grandkids were back home. I'm sorry. My house that I grew my kids raised my kids in was gone. And um now I'm surrounded fulls around uh surrounded by strangers. Um and a week after the that that night of um this talk about surrender, I was heading back up to for one of the grandkids' birthday parties, and all of a sudden God showed me I was in concrete, but there was a hole right here. I got excited. How'd that happen? What did that tell me more? You know, how do I partner with you on this? What has been my question? How do I do this? And and he goes, You need to talk, you need to open your mouth. And I sat straight up in my car and I'm like, Because I was programmed my entire life to keep my mouth shut, I was always in trouble speaking truth, and I'm like, and now you're telling me I'm that's the only way to break this off, and so that just went to a whole new level of surrender because souls healed is healing, but this is where I really learned how trauma is embedded in our bodies, embedded in our core. Um, because even though my soul was willing to and is surrendered, my body would literally have a physical reaction whenever I was supposed to speak truth, and I had to fight through that, and when I finally made that connection, then I was like, okay, I got it. Now we can, you know, I Lord, how do I partner? Show me how to deal with the trauma that's in my body. Um, because I knew how to deal with it in my soul, and so um it was like I said, 10 weeks and I walked into class. I woke up that morning with such a sinus headache I couldn't see out of my left eye. And I wasn't gonna go to class that morning because of it. I can't see, I'm gonna have to drive. And I walked in and it was worship and communion and worship that morning. And um, I remember taking communion, they did communion first, and all of a sudden that sinus headache went away and everything was fine. I was, I I just sat there, it's like, oh thank you, Jesus. I was fine then. We can continue. Um, worship. I stood up to worship, and I literally saw in the spirit and felt the con everything that was on me just slide off. And I could breathe again. I don't know if I've ever been able to breathe. And within a week, God healed my asthma, and there's a connection. There was a connection He showed me, and um because I I do believe Satan was trying to take my voice, my breath, so that I couldn't. Um that was when I first started to feel freedom. And so here now I heard about the trip, the BSS uh the music trip, um in January, I think. I thought, oh wow, okay, yeah that would be way cool. Wasn't that amazing? I'm like, oh, and then so I looked it up and I'm like, oh. Um and then it was like two months before the trip, I was sitting in church because we're assigned services, they have five different services, and we are assigned services, and I had eight o'clock in the morning, and I'm sitting there, and I had those thoughts, that thought of you need to go to Israel, or you should go to Israel, or maybe it was just Israel. I can't remember, and I'm like, I can't, that's a lot of money, Lord, because he was adamant about not working while I was at school. And so I leaned over to a friend and I said, Hey, ask the Holy Spirit, yes or no? And she paused and she looked at me and she grinned. She goes, Oh my gosh, she goes, I am so excited. She goes, I don't know what's going on, but yes. And so right then and there, I pulled out my phone and I signed up for the trip. And um, when that happened, from that time till I got to Israel, he kept saying, There's connections, pay attention, there's connections. And I'm like, and I come to find, don't get me wrong, Israel was amazing. It changed so much in me. It solidified so much. The Bible came to life.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Did it in a way that I can't even describe. Yeah. And it was the connections that I walked away with that were so impacting. Um and you, Sarah, and then there's another couple that was on my bus, and I'm just I'm blown away at what he has done, just men melding us together as friends, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

So it's been so fun, and it's so cool because when that first came out, I saw the trip on, I think it was Instagram. And I just felt the Lord say go to Israel. And same thing. It was like, it's $4,200. Like once you know you pay for the trip and your flight and and all that. And my tax return covered it, covered the trip. And so I was just like, when God wants you to go somewhere, He will make it happen. I mean, that's one lesson I learned for sure. You know, and I'm like, what trip are we going on next? And what tax return will cover the next one?

SPEAKER_02 23:28

So that's how I ended up in Israel.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah. I love it. So you've obviously had some amazing takeaways, right, from the last three years, because the program is three years long.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Are there any things that you would love to highlight?

SPEAKER_02 23:43

In fact, I my the graduation, I'm officially done with third year. Um, it was Thursday for me. Um, uh anyway, so just to throw that in there. Wow, the highlights. Um you know, I have to say that his faithfulness, you know, I I I trusted him and I knew his faithfulness before because of what he brought me through. But that's even more so, it's in my core that he whatever he says he's gonna do, he will do. Um, it may not look like what we think it we're hoping it looked like. Um I you know, and and but his faithfulness and is is one and you know, and when we are when we trust that and we step into that, and there's so much freedom. So I walked away with a deeper knowing of his faithfulness, but the freedom because of the obedience of saying yes, he has my yes, and it's not just for that school, there was something that shifted that um it was it was it's really deep of wherever you go, I'll go. Wherever you send me, I'll go, but you have to go with me. I I can't do this by myself. That freedom, that freedom to it is all about him. And I know that's kind of sounds funny, but it is. I don't have that mindset of oh, wait a minute, but and um trusting that he has my kids, he has my grandkids, that you know, since I've I kind of touched base a little bit, you know, since I've been at Bethel, and that was one of the things that really I was trying to excuse my way out of school was because of my kids and grandkids, because during that whole process of the separation divorce, the kids stopped talking to me, and um God started to repair that. Um and I'm like, you're just starting this and you're gonna take me away, you know. But the what he has been doing is is it's our relationship is like so much better, so much stronger. I have seen so much growth in my kids, even though they are not walking with the Lord, at least two of them, let me let me put it that way. Um, and seeing God's hand on them. And um not that he wouldn't have done it, couldn't do it, um, excuse me, with me there. It's he's showing me because I'm a hands-on mom, I'm a hands-on grandma, he's showing me I've got them. Let me, you know, and it has our relationship has really gotten really re rich. Um, and the big, uh probably the most, and I kept declaring it first year, even if I wasn't really fully believing it myself, was he works all to all things together for his good, for his glory, for those who love and trust him. And and I would declare that first year, I didn't minister much. When I went down, he said you're not to minister, except when he when he prompted me to, I would pray for somebody. But other than that, I was on the sidelines. I was there, I was there to be healed, I was there. Um, and I would declare that over people, not quite believing it myself, trying to figure out how this was gonna work. Yeah, I'm standing here on the other side going, no, he works all things, no matter what the mess is, no matter how bad things are or good, he uses all things for his glory, and though he's the only one that can do that in the only way he can. And the key to that is is surrender.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

That's so good, Jody. Well, it's true, it's a hard lesson, but it's a true lesson. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

We have he gives us so much opportunity to surrender, you know, and we have that choice. It's our choice whether to or not, and um, you know, this free will thing, he doesn't push. But when we surrender, man, and and allow him to have his way, yeah. Your world will be rocked.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

It will be. So tell us about this little book that you're writing. It's not little, but it's a great concept because it speaks to emotional abuse. So, and that's something that's so prevalent in today's world, unfortunately, in a lot of different relationships and scenarios. So maybe speak a little bit to that and then maybe talk about like you know, what emotional abuse is and isn't.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Yeah. Um, unless God change it, the title of the book is The Hidden World of Emotional Abuse. Uh, because like you said, it isn't everywhere, it's at work in families, it's in the church. It's, you know, and it's not talked about. And it's and um because it's hidden. It's it's hidden. And when I people had no clue. And so just to backtrack just a little bit, it was uh January 2019, and it was a Friday, and I I had stood in hope on promises, and um for 32 years for my marriage, and there was always that hope of oh, today tonight's gonna be different, you know, things are gonna change, and and it was a Friday, and I had this expectation and and almost excitement. I'm like, okay, we're gonna have a good night, good weekend. And he came home, and it wasn't, and I have to chuckle because I'm just I remember sitting there and he had thrown a tantrum as soon as he walked in the door, and I sat there, and by this time, those didn't bother me. I just kind of rolled my eyes, and he went down the hallway and slammed the door as he went in the bedroom, and I went, Lord, I can't do this for another 30 years. I I just I can't do this for another 30 years, and his voice was so loud, he goes, You don't have to leave. And that was it. I waited until he released me, and um, so I walked out the door. So, with that being said, you know, um, to go back to what we were the book, um nobody knew. So when I did leave, people were shocked. People were shocked. Where's the proof? You know, there's no bruises, there's no broken bones. Um, you know, people don't see the times when you're standing, he's got, you know, kind of trapped on the wall, and he punches a hole in the wall right by your head, or throws things at you that could literally, if it's hit in the right spot, could kill you, but you're able to see it coming and move and it's stuck in the wall where your head was. Um doors being kicked down when you're in the bedroom or the bathroom. Um, you know, I mean, this is I know this is it's but there's so much more to this, but nobody sees that. Nobody sees the or hears the degrading, nobody hears or sees the name calling. Um, and sometimes um it is in public, and you know, the shaming, they do a public shaming thing, but they use it a sarcasm kind of joking, you know, and brush it off. Oh come on, I'm just joking, you're fine, or whatever. Um, nobody sees that. Nobody sees, and no, I don't believe there's an understanding of what that does to our soul, our bodies, our minds. We are made of three parts, and it affects every area of our soul, and it you know, there's autoimmune disease is linked to trauma in our the healings, these these these traumas that happen, um, and so much more, a lot of sicknesses as well, and um they're starting to connect that in in the medical and the psychological fields, and um, but it just fractures every fiber of your being, um, and making you second guess everything, you know. It's like, did I really hear that right? Wait a minute. I thought, I mean, um, and and so it's hard to prove. Not that you should have to prove it, but it's hard to prove even and I I even in the church.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Oh, I think even more so in the church.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

I agree. Um, yes, I was gonna say that, but um, I'm not a church anymore. Yeah, uh, yeah. And um it's because I there was three uh more than three versions, but I'll just share three versions. We would go to his parents' house, and he's the dutiful son. Can't do anything wrong, joyful joy, joyful, you know, but nobody saw what was going on before we left the house and how almost every holiday um God's restoring the holidays for me, but in the mornings when we were set to go, there was always a fight. He would always purposely pick a fight, and then we leave the house, enter his parents' house, and everything's okay. We're having the greatest morning. And then we go to my parents' house and he'd sit and sulk on the couch, and you know, it's it's uh he doesn't want to be there, it's not about him, whatever you want to put to it, he'd sit and sulk and wouldn't engage, and then we get home, and then of course, there's the it the quiet the silent treatment resumes and the attitude, and and you know, and it's like so the reason why it's so shocking for a lot of people is they see one version of him, sure, you know, he can he's a businessman, he connects with people, that's what they see, and um so it's easy for them to spin any story they want to. Um, so um this is when I started writing this book, it it was I I had in the my mind frame was my story. Um and it's still gonna be in there, but it's also you know, this is a story of hope and redemption. You know, and to bring hope to so many that don't know have anywhere to turn, that where do I go from here? You know, and maybe have reached out before, and it it was either the you know, and and nothing happened because they either weren't believed or were encouraged to stay. Yes. Um which is well especially when there's kids involved, right? Amen. Yes, absolutely. Um yeah, and um so so that's you know, that's that's my hope is that and it helped people see that there is hope, that there is freedom, um, and it's not easy, but it's possible. It's possible. Um, and you had asked too what it is and what it's not. Uh let's see, you know, it's it looks like manipulation, and sometimes that looks so subtle that is so subtle that we don't realize it's manipulation. Sure. Because it doesn't cut come off as like overbearing, but it's you know uh degrading, uh extremely controlled manipulation, and um the spirit behind that is is to hurt inside, you know, and bring confusion, uh huge dominance, you know, that comes with control, huge dominance. Um where you know, I mean back when, way before cell phones, um he would come home and turn off the phone, but I I was not, I didn't know about it. And the next day when he was at work, he'd try to call, and it there was it wouldn't ring on my site because I didn't know he turned it off, and he forgot he turned it off. So he would either send his mom over and ask why I was on the phone because they thought I was on the phone with another line, and she'd asked, Yeah, Tommy wants to know if you know, would like you to get off the phone because he's trying to call you. And it's like I haven't been on the phone, it hasn't rang. And if she didn't show up, he would show up in a rage. I've been trying to get a hold of you, you know, and I'm like, There's been no phone, and the accusations, oh my goodness, the accusations are just absolutely wild. Um, but he would literally rip the phone out and throw it across. We went through so many phones, it was ridiculous. Because, yeah, and then he'd come back control mechanism, like, oh man, it keeps you fear-based, it's fear-based, yeah. Um, and so it's you literally are afraid to do anything or say anything, and and whatever it is that you do say or do is wrong, no matter what, you know. And um, and so he and then he would come home that night and say, Oh, I forgot I turned off the ringer. Okay, yeah, it's like, okay, but it it just keeps there's this swirl constantly swirl, you know, and that is just one aspect, and it just an example, you know, it's but there's this swirl that keeps you, it's you really truly don't know what end is up, you know. You try to to kind of think of, okay, so how is he gonna be be when he gets home? And you try to prepare yourself how to respond, in you know, because we don't know what version we're gonna get. I I didn't know what version I was gonna get when he got home. And um anyway, so yeah, so what is you know, you ask what is not it's not the isolation, the isolated incidents out of frustration or something that that we all could have. Um just because I raised my voice once doesn't mean that's a constant thing, you know. If I was frustrated and maybe that was the only way to get one of my kids' attention. You know, because mom doesn't do that. Wait a minute, you know, that type of thing. Um there's gonna be conflict in in a relationship. There's gonna be conflict, and not all conflict means there's you know, this is there's a manipulation con um happening, and there's gonna be missteps, you know, I'm wrong, I am not perfect. There's gonna be times, you know, when it's like, ooh, wow, you know, so it's but there's not it's not the intention of trying to get your goat, if I may, um, and stir you up and get you on the defensive. Because if you're on the defenses, you can't fight back, and you're it's so confusing, there's so much confusion that you don't know which end is up, and it's how do you fight this? There were times when literally I'm like, Lord, if this was physical, I could have something to fight against, but I don't know what I'm fighting. How do I do this?

SPEAKER_01 42:28

So I thought that is I mean, it's a true testament to what you walk through that you were healed, and you know, you had to go through another level of healing, but God really started healing you in a marriage that was that was not, you know, his best for you. I think that like you were saying earlier, that he uses all things.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

Amen.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Yeah, he really does. So if you were to talk to married couples who aren't thriving, you know, like they should, and if they did the work, that's the big caveat. Both people have to do the work. What would you think they could? I mean, what are some of the barriers you think you could overcome in a relationship and have a relationship?

SPEAKER_02 43:13

The first question I would ask them both is where is Jesus in your personal relationship? Where is he? You know, is he where he should be in first above all everything else? Or is he just some of uh someone I call when I'm in need? You know? Um Jesus in the center of everything. I that's where I would, that's what my first question is. And I would also encourage them in that question to be honest. Because it's so easy say, oh, he's my world, but yet your world doesn't look like it. Yeah, you know what I mean? And so to to be honest with yourself and with God, because this is between you and God. What I learned was when I came back to the Lord when I was 20. At my bottom, I had to. I'm responsible for me. This is me. I can't control anyone else but me, how I respond, my actions. And um I'm accountable for me, not what anybody else does or says. I'm also accountable for how I respond to what is happening to me. And um, so this was that would be number one. Um I would talk to them, hey, do you sense a pattern in yourself? Let's talk about those patterns. How do how do you react in ABCD situation? And okay, so there's let's get you healed. I would encourage for healing in these areas because that could be a barrier. Umforgiveness towards your spouse, your partner, you cannot move forward unless there's forgiveness, and that doesn't mean they're perfect, and it doesn't mean it's not gonna happen again, whatever the situation, you know, it's but you're again it comes back to you, you're responsible for you, and um it's amazing forgiveness, his loving kindness covers a multitude of sins, and that's what we are to walk in. I'm not perfect, you know. I uh and I and so I don't expect perfection from people, but we have to recognize that as well. Um communicate. How's your communication? You know, are you having a bad day and you just kind of snap at the your partner? Um, and not say, hey, it no matter how bad of a day, hey, it's good to see you. I'm glad you're home, you know, or I'm so glad to see you. I you know, I I've been waiting to see you all day. Whatever. How's your communication? And um, do you pray together? Some of the tightest connections that I have are the ones that I have been in prayer with, and it takes it to develop it's there's this connection that happens in the spirit realm. Do you pray together? Do you know each other in the spirit realm as well as the physical? Um, it just knits you together. And I have uh 28 years ago, I was in a Bible study, and my daughter was one at the time, and there was one of the ladies that was going through a rough patch in her marriage. And so we we we stood with her in prayer, and then she came back around, and they as a couple decided to pray before their intimate time in the bedroom. You know, they came together, they invited the Holy Spirit to come and bless them, and that transformed their marriage completely. That connection. Um, she said it it had transformed not just that intimate sexual time, but in their everyday life, there were that that created that deep intimate connection. Um and the other the last thing I would encourage is vulnerability, not only encourage but ask them, are you safe? Is your partner safe to be vulnerable with? If they're not, why is it something in you that you can't be vulnerable because of your past, your history, or is it something in them? And you really this is vulnerability is a key um to unlocking us, and it's something that I learned actually last year in second year. I took a class and it was about trauma, and the whole the key is is vulnerability, and man, I resisted that so bad. It was like I the crap class was extremely difficult for me, but yet it was so freeing. And actually, that it was called Cage Free. And and she asked a question one day. It's like, okay, well, you know, have you guys it's about halfway through this because it was a seven-week course, and she said, Is anybody getting anything out of this? And I reluctantly raised my hand and she smiled because I didn't say anything, but she knew I struggled. And and I said, I said, Yeah, I said, Vulnerability is my friend, or I'm I'm I'm becoming friends with vulnerability. And she started laughing. She goes, Yes, because it is your friend, and I have learned vulnerability is my friend. The beginning of this year, BSSM assigned third years homework, and we had to do our timeline of our life. It was the most difficult assignment I ever had to do because I had to be vulnerable. Not only did I do the timeline, and then they had a series of questions, I had to sit with my mentor because third year is a mentorship, and and that's how I ended up in Florida. Um, I had to sit, you have to sit with your mentor, and you go through the whole thing with you, with him or them, you know, her. And oh, that was probably the most difficult thing that I've ever been through and had to do. But I'm so determined to be free that I and I said yes to God. And but that right there, the freedom that came from that, uh, it unlocked me in areas that I still don't know. Now, I'm gonna go back to my mentor, it was safe, my mentor is safe. I was able to just completely just rip myself open and bear all.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Yep, just rip the band-aid off and go for it.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Yes. Um, I understand because I've been there, there are people that aren't. There's a difference between transparency and vulnerability. Transparency is you are sharing to that depth, but you're not, you don't receive. You're not inviting them in to speak into your life. Vulnerability is bringing somebody in and saying, Hey, this is who I am. Let them speak to those places that need to be spoken to. Um, so there's a difference, and that that too helped me put things in perspective. You know, if you're doing if speak Heather, if you're called to speak somewhere, you can be completely transparent. You don't have to receive any words from anybody about what you share. That's a mind shift. Um, but for me, safety in somebody is so important. I never received that until actually I met my mentor this year. But I have purposed to be safe for people because I never got that, and um and you know, we to grow, and and part of what I do is um, you know, part of one of that is not just because I didn't get that, but is to call people into what God created them to, identity. You know, so when they open up and share, I can speak identity and their purpose into them as God leads. They're more open to to receive that. So vulnerability and um yeah, that's that's what I you know it's it's not what a lot of people think. We have to work on ourselves before we can grow. I mean, grow, work so we can connect to others, and if we can do that as a couple, as partners, you know, it it just brings you closer together and makes that unity stronger. That is amazing. And my next, I'm just saying, no, there is no one, but my husband coming. I know there is, but he's there, he's somewhere, yeah, because God's promised me. If we can't have vulnerability before we even get married, you know, that just being able to open up, I it's not gonna happen. I'm not, I would I refuse to enter in another relationship where I have to be guarded all the time.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

So that is so good. So one of your giftings and everything is that you do have from time to time prophetic words. And I know that's been one of the biggest, biggest blessings is when I get those beautiful text messages from you, and you're like, here is a download. And I'm like, how did you even know that? I'm driving down the highway, like one day I had to pull over. I was like, I had to pull over, I'm crying. Because it like I had played through Siri or whatever. So, are there any sort of prophetic words that you sort of felt as you were preparing for today? Things that you would want to share that maybe God laid on your heart?

SPEAKER_02 54:51

Um, I've been asking the Lord, and what he keeps bringing back to me is something that he's been talking to me about for a few months now. And it's no compromise. Not compromising ourselves. You know, when we compromise in um how do I say it? The church in general, there's a lot of compromise in church. It's like we ex the the by the church has accepted things that aren't actually biblical. That so those thoughts and um how we perceive the Bible isn't accurate. God is coming, Jesus is coming back for a pure spotless bride, and the no compromise, and that includes not compromising personal, I mean, he's really going to even the things that are not back, they're just a distraction from him, you know. Um, and in relationships, no compromise in relationships, you know. So if if you you're not in a relationship and you start dating and you're starting to see these little red signs, you know, these flags that aren't, but there's they're okay. They're okay, they're just they're not that bad. We see the good in people, we see the potential, and so we will ignore those. And the Lord's going, no, no, no, no. Yeah, that's what gets us in trouble. The compromise, and I just I I want to encourage, you know, I because I I as I I started to switch, I hear this, but you don't understand what I've gone through. I don't, and I'm I'm like, yes, God sees it all. You've waited so long for this relationship, and then there's something that shows up, and we're gonna ignore it. No, don't ignore it. That's setting yourself up, not compromising. God will bless the blessings for those who do not compromise is so great, it's even better than what we think. So let's not compromise in any area, and particularly because we've been talking about relationships, in relationships. That perfect one is he's got that for him, for you, her, for us, and not compromising, and that's so hard to do, you know, when you've been in a marriage for 30 years and there's no affection, you've been in a marriage, and you know, you you connect with somebody and they're so kind, they're you know, and and accepting and and just they s they hit that spot in you. It's like, oh yes. But there's this red flag, and God's going, mm, pay attention. You know, not that you have to move them out of your life, you just don't bring them in any further. Yeah, so I just encourage that. Um that's a good one. And I'm hearing as well right now is there's somebody specific, and I don't know who I I I obviously don't know your, you know, the audience or what, but there's somebody specific that's like, yeah, but Jody, you don't know my story. You don't know what I've gone through, you don't know, you know, how how could this he you know could he do the same for me? I just want to speak hope. God sees you and he hears your cries, and um running into your freedom is not easy. It we literally, it's it's a lot of work, you know that, Heather. It's a lot of work, but it's so worth it. Um, so I just want to encourage you, um, reach out. Reach out to somebody. There's gotta be asked and I encourage you to ask the Lord who, because as we attain, you know, not everybody's safe because they just they don't understand the hidden world. Um I ran that, I ran into that at Bethel, at BSSM. You know, there was a situation in, you know, and I I was like, oh dear Lord, where do people go? Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:09

But what I'm hearing right now is if we would stop compromising, things would be more safe. Yeah, yeah, yes, and then people would have someplace to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

Right, correct. When we compromise and we're taking our eyes off of God and we don't we're not trusting Him. And that need and and preaching to the choir right now, there's that need that is so deep. We want that validation, we need it. We need that validation, we need to know that we're loved, you know, and and so I get it. I'm coming from some a place where I've walked through this, I've had to literally, it was, and that was part too of how I yes, I'm going, but I also there are certain people in my life that I knew they weren't bad, but I was relying on them too much, and they were in the place of where God wanted.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

That's a really good thing, too. It's so hard, it is hard, it's so hard, but it's worth it. It's yeah, it will be, it will be worth it for sure. So, as we wrap up today, if you could encourage someone to chase after Jesus and pursue redemption, what would you say?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:41

It's worth it. Um wow, he is for you, and um he's actually done the work for you. He paid the price on the cross. Do we have we have you know, partnering with him is what one thing that I've really learned this these last three years. Another thing is is my first question is Lord, what's it look like to partner with you in this situation? Whether it's as simple as having a conversation with somebody that that may be difficult, or what's my next step, or if he's calling me into a new realm, Lord, what's that look like? Because I'm not gonna go without you. I can't. Um, and yes, it's difficult, as we said before, but when we partner with him, he it's what he does, how he grows us, it makes it possible. Freedom is so worth it. It was for freedom's sake he came to set us free. There's you know, it wasn't in vain, it wasn't just because he did, he came to set us free because for the sake of freedom. And um you really don't have anything to lose except for the fear, depression, the things that are holding you back, um that those will be gone. And God replaces those with your calling of who you are, the peace, the freedom, you know, love, his perfect love casts out all fear, his his perfect love casts out all fear, and there's no fear in Christ, and um um, yeah, just and there will be grace to be able to walk through what he's asked you to walk through because everybody's journey looks different.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:05

Well, Jodi, this was amazing. Thank you so much for coming on today, and we look forward to seeing your book launch here in the next couple years.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:14

Thank you. Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:25

In the straw jets and to the rhythm, here I am. In the straw jets and to the rhythm up a ray, came back and cut away. Here I am in the straw jets into the rhythm up and rain.