SPEAKER_02 0:07

Anna Wilcox is the wife, mother, and author of the new book, Wim with a Father. Anna goes through a season of testing and trying beyond what most believe they can bear, yet shine a light on the way through that also takes you higher. So your tribulation can become a springboard to transformation, healing, and unshakable hope.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Welcome to the Pursuing Redemption Podcast with Heather Schwartz.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Well, Anna, thank you for coming on today and welcome to the Pursuing Redemption Podcast. We're super excited to have you and talk about your new book, The Womb of the Father, and would love to kick it off with sort of that first question: can you tell us your story and how you came to know Jesus?

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Absolutely. Well, I can't tell you I have this just amazing dramatic story about coming to Christ. Honestly, I never remember not being quote unquote saved. My dad was a pastor, so we were in church every time the doors were opened. So that was kind of like my world. So from my earliest memories, Jesus was the Lord of my life and he was right here in my heart, you know, as I understood it as a little girl. And I was always a rule follower. So I when I I, you know, did all the things that, you know, I thought a good Christian should do, and I made sure to stay away from all things that you're not supposed to do. And I continued that pattern into adulthood and I grew up and got married and good Christian uh wife and had babies, good Christian mama. You know, all the things, and they're not bad at all, but they just to me were like so empty and fruitless, and I'm like, there's gotta be more. So that really began my journey of pursuing um the more of God. And part of that journey, you know, I talk about in my book was I went through this tremendous fire that ultimately led me to coming to know the Father in such a personal way and intimately. Sure. Union with the divine. But I'm saying all of this to circle back around to what I what I called being saved as a little girl. I now see that it was more just kind of the beginning and just a seed. And now that I've gone through what I've gone through, my um definition, I think, of being saved has transcended just the eternal security and being saved from my sins, which I'm not minimizing that, that's really important. But I now it's more of a sacred unveiling of who I am in Christ and who he is in me and what that looks like walking it out in the flesh, in the here and now. And you know, God is like he is in us and he's in every part of us. And just that going through the fire that I went through and burning away all that was not of Christ in me, the hope of glory, just brought me to this place where right now my greatest heart's desire is that he would find me a pure and clean vessel that he can completely rest in and express his essence through in full Shekinah glory. And to me, just awakening to that presence in me is like the broader, wider definition of salvation. So I love it.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

That's a great definition. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Ask me 10 years, and hopefully I transcend that, you know, because it's just awakening.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

So can you tell us a little bit about the conversations that you and your dad had before he passed from this earth about Jesus and sort of pursuing the Trinity?

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Yes, absolutely. So my dad and I had so many good, good, good conversations. Um one of his life messages uh that I will always carry with me was God is good all the time and all the time, God is good. And a couple of months before he passed, he started just saying, you know what, God is good all God is good just because he is. And um, you could really go deep, deep in that if you really pursue that more. But um, we had so many theological conversations just about, gosh, the immense, irrevocable, unconditional love that God has for all his children, to the heights and depths to which he went to redeem us all. Um but two of the conversations that we had that I think really pertain to the book and just my whole process when I went through the fire that I went through. Um, one of them was just about the um the divine presence of God inside of us, and how you know, God is not just like some person or entity out there that we're gonna get to meet one day in the suite by and by, and um, we have to continually ask him to come, come, come in, but he made our bodies to be his temple. And um like he is in all things, and he is in us, and he is in every single part of us, and not just this place in our heart, like I understood it as a child, but he is he is he is in every cell of our DNA, every molecule of our being. And like if you really contemplate that and think about that, um, not just like know it right here in your intellect, but really integrate that into every aspect of your being, like all powerful, all-loving, omnipotent God is in every part of us, and just really integrating that and how powerful creatures that we really are because of Christ in us. Um anyway, that was one conversation that that just really helped my process and helped me whenever ultimately I really started pursuing that intimacy with him and that divine union with him. And then the other conversation, um, you know, about just dying to ourself and what that really looks like in the here and now, in the natural. And um it's going through the purification process, right? And in a way, everything attached to us that is not the essence of who we are, which is really Christ in us, the hope of glory. Um, and so, you know, as I walked through the fire and went through the traumas and tragedies and losses and disease and all the things that I went through, it ultimately um, you know, God brought me through that. It was a process of dying to myself and really awakening every day to who I really am in Him. And so all these conversations really did have a profound effect in um walking through my journey. And um I I carry them very, very um securely right here in my heart. They carried me through some of the darkest times of my life.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

So that's amazing. Those are fantastic lessons to learn from a dad. Yes, pretty cool. Yeah. So tell us how you have dealt with some of these hard things, the things that you talked about where you walk through the fire. And unfortunately, your family has gone through some loss in the last few years and everything. And how has God really led you through that? And then what sort of generational issues do you see at play with some of what's going on or what has happened?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

So, how has God led me through all of these things? Okay, well, it's definitely been a process. Um, you know, so just talking about how, like, whenever Doug and I met um and we got married, and you know, whenever you you go into a marriage, um, you bring your issues, he brings his issues, and you come together and you think that it's all gonna be okay because the love will carry you through. Um, and then you get married and you realize the issues that you bring into the marriage are amplified by about a thousand times uh after you get married, and it's not just the ooey gooey that can carry you through. Um, and you walk through that process, and at some point, if your marriage is gonna survive, um, you realize at least one of you, I mean, it's helpful if both of you can do this, but at least one of you are gonna have to really start digging deep within and taking care of care of this the stuff that you bring to the table. And so um I think the process of me, by the grace of God, realizing, hey, I got some stuff inside of me, I gotta quit looking outside of myself and blaming this and that and the other, and just really looking at um inside of myself um and taking care of those internal blockages. Sure. Um, and so I I brought things um into the marriage, and it's important in my journey because if I hadn't started looking inside and dealing with, you know, some of the issues I had was unforgiveness and insecurity and um relying on um him and his reactions and all the things for me to be okay emotionally, all of that kind of thing. Um I really started looking inside and digging deep and uh proclaiming emotional freedom. And that emotional freedom, um, you know, it took a lot of work, but I got to a level of emotional freedom that whenever um, you know, when my dad died, that was kind of the November 3rd, 2016. I always say that was the day my fire started. And um it started with a gazelle intensity and it did not let up for many, many years. It was one thing after the other. But if by the grace of God, he hadn't led me through that um um process of gaining that emotional freedom inside and dealing with those issues, I don't know that I would have been able to start really just just I wouldn't have been able to turn to him like I did. But whenever the fire did start, and um by the grace of God, I just was at this place in my life. I wanted the more of him, I didn't care what it took. And at that point I knew, okay, Lord, I'm gonna let this continue to burn out of me anything and everything that needs to be burnt out. All I know is I want you more, and I just trust you. So I I I ripped my heart right open and just really trusted that the God of the universe had mine and my family's back, and um that no matter what, um, trust that he works everything out for our family's good. And um I hope I'm answering your question. You were basically asking about how I was really started to pursue the heart of the Father, right? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so I just I just made a choice that even if it had to be minute by minute and second by second, I was just gonna turn to him, put on the mind of Christ, renew my mind to the fact that he was good and he was working everything out for our good. And um, you know, I mean, I'm a human being, right? So I got into some times where I was in despair and turmoil and you know, the muck and the mire of all those emotions. And but what I would do was when I realized I was there, I had made the choice. I'm not gonna stay there, I'm not gonna be a victim, and um, I'm gonna do anything and everything to climb out. And I would, I mean, sometimes I would just have just, oh my gosh, with all my might, crawl to those higher frequencies of love and joy and peace and um just complete trust and vulnerability that God, I trust you. I just want more of you. I'm not gonna turn away from you. I'm not gonna stop pursuing you. And um it's easy to trust God when everything's going okay, right? When your marriage is when your kids are doing good, when the finances are just rolling in, it's really easy to trust God then and say, Oh yeah, I trust you, God. But when nothing is going right and your whole world is falling apart, when it's hardest is when it counts the most. And um I remember preaching that and say it to myself. I'd say it to Doug, okay, God, you know, Doug, when it's hardest is when it counts the most. And so I just with God just gave me the strength to just buckle down in my tenacity just to trust him and turn to him and just not stop pursuing him. So, and he is good, he's faithful, and he brought me to a place of um of his presence um that's um he rewards very well.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

So he does, he does. Maybe can you tell us a little bit about your story with Doug and and how you met and then how long you guys were married and sort of what has happened over the last few years?

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Absolutely. So we met back in um um 1994. I'm gonna age myself. So it was my first day as a freshman at Oklahoma State University. Um, it was his second semester at Oklahoma State University. He had he was a little bit older than me. He had just completed a six-year stint in the Marine Corps. He was in Desert Storm. And so when we met, um, it was love at first sight for me. He was my first boyfriend, my first kiss, my first everything. And um, you know, it all just seemed magical and fairy tales, and um, you know, like everything was just a sign that we were meant to be together forever, kind of thing. And so we got married five years later, and um uh we did, you know, I talked about earlier how we we got married, you know, found out marriage wasn't like what we thought it was gonna be. And we we we had our struggles, which I talk about in the book. And um then seven years into the marriage, we had our first boy, his name was Nathan, and then five years later we had Nicholas, and two and a half years later we had um we had Noah, and they're awesome.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

So maybe fast forward a little bit to some of the things that you guys were going through.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Absolutely. Um, so when our fire started, are you talking about yeah, yeah. Okay, so you know, back in 2016, um right right before 2016 was when I really started just wanting the more and pursuing God with my whole heart and mind and soul. And um, you know, I cried out to God one day. I was like, God, I just I just I need more of you. Please, please give me more. And um he did give me more, but it wasn't in the way that I thought he would. It was through a whole bunch of trials. And um 2016, I lost my dad. And um from that moment on, I'm not kidding you, every month to two months for a four-year period, um, we had some really, really tough, hard things that we went through. And these weren't just like little, tiny little annoyances, like we had those, but they were really big, major, major things um constantly. Constantly. And you know, some of them I lost my dad, my husband, he started um dealing with shortly thereafter some very significant depression, something that he had dealt with for a while, um, depression, anxiety, PTSD. Um, but he just kind of just kept it hidden um and was able to really contain it inside. And he got to the point where he couldn't, he couldn't hide it anymore, and it was affecting um his everyday functioning. Um, and then shortly thereafter, he was diagnosed with stage four cancer. So we had to go through that, and um, we had a lot of financial things, and and then I lost my cousin in very similar ways to the way I lost my dad, and uh my husband's um partnership with my husband's company kind of just put our finances into disarray, and um, and we my husband took his life at some point. So it was just, you know, those were the the big, huge, huge things, but there was a lot of big things in the middle of all of that. So it was literally it was one thing after the other after the other after the other. And so um, so yeah, we went we went through the fire for sure.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

So, how have you seen God redeem since everything happened with Doug losing his life?

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Like fast forward the next few years, fast forward the next three few years, and of course, um, you know, we went through um, had I was a a widowed mom, um, three boys, and they were um 14 and nine and almost seven at the time. And it was during the COVID era, so that was crazy in and of itself. Sure. Um, but you know, we walked through the grieving process, and um he's redeemed us in many, many ways. Um, you know, we've gone, we've done the therapy route, so many different types of therapy, and um, the spiritual route. Um he's he's he's brought us to a place and we're still work, we're still walking through things. I mean, I've had some up in the last six months that we're still walking through, but um God has um the boys are doing really, really well um for the most part. There's some challenges here and there, but um God is good.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

That's amazing. I did love one of the things in your book because you do a great job of just uh being a wonderful example as a mother. And I just I really gleaned a lot of that uh out of your book in terms of just the spiritual blessings that you would speak over your kids and everything. Maybe speak to how you incorporated some of that scripture into the spiritual blessings that you speak over your sons, because I think that's so important. Like what we prophesy over our children really does, you know, work into their destiny, and it's very, very important.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Absolutely. So, um, so so you know, the night that Doug died, um, I had prayed two things. Like I I had committed to God that night. You know what, God, I don't understand this, this hurts. This really, really, really hurts, but I'm not gonna be a victim. Um, and I trust you with everything in me, I'm gonna trust you. And I just have these two prayers, just these two prayers, God. Give me these two things. Um, and I prayed um that no matter what, um, no matter what, that my boys would not turn away from him because of what happened. And then the second prayer I prayed was that um uh, you know, God just um I I've been a homemaker this whole time. I haven't worked since my youngest, the day before I had my youngest, right? So just whatever it is, Lord, I want to help my boys grieve. Don't make me have to deal uh to have to deal with this financial thing um for the first six to months to a year so that I can help my kids grieve. So anyway, um fast forward six weeks, and the first time I opened my Bible, um I um I because my long story short, I didn't have access to my Bible for six weeks, but first time I opened my Bible, um, I opened it up to the scripture, Psalms 146, 9, and it basically says God supports the the widows and the orphans. And um, and I just thought that was cool because it's the first time I had opened my Bible and God was speaking to me for the very first time since um since Doug had died. And um, the next day I thought, well, that works so good, I'm gonna try this again. So I just looked into the sky, opened the Bible, look down, and um it was uh um Numbers 18, 7, and it says, You and your sons with you shall attend to your priesthood, and you shall um and you will it it goes on and on. But anyway, so to me, those two scriptures were God's uh promises to me that He was going to answer the prayer first two prayers that I prayed. Um, but um out of that scripture of Numbers 18, 7, you and your sons will attend to your priesthood. I have held on to that promise, and um, out of that, I will read. Um, I think it's page 188. Yes, yes, it was so good very often over my boys. Yeah, um you will attend to your priesthood, and you will fulfill the purpose for which you were created, and you will live a long, long, long, long, long, long life with the wife of your youth. You see yourself exactly how God sees you. You will be restored double for your trouble. Your life is and will be abundant, prosperous, healthy, blessed, godly, loving, kind, giving, selfless, gentle, joyful, peaceful, complete. Whole, lacking nothing, and full of shalom. You are developing every single gift that God has placed on the inside of you to its fullness. And the same will be true for your children and your children's children for generations and generations to come. That's what I well. I say other things because it's been a while since I've actually written that. So there's sure about a minute's more worth that I say. I add to it all the time.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Do you really?

SPEAKER_01 22:32

That's what's in the book.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

That's so fun. How do the boys feel about you praying that over them now, or do they just love it?

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Well, you know, they are 19 and 14 and 11. And so I say to them, you know what? All I ask you to do is just listen and just you don't have to say anything, just agree in your heart. Because these are all good things, right? I'm just good things over you. So all you got to do is agree in your heart. And so they're good. They go along with me and they don't say anything. They they I think they really do agree in their heart. What what harm is that, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Absolutely. That's all about talking about the right things.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yes, I'm speaking to identity into them.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Yeah. One of the things that we wanted to know, because I think this book will do this, and I think I can see you as sort of being a champion for people that struggle with mental illness and depression and suicide. But how would you encourage someone walking through those things, especially after the fire you've been through, to really chase after Jesus who is our healer?

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Absolutely. Before I answer that, I have to talk about um kind of where I have gone. Like, you know, there is like this holistic approach, I think, to dealing with to dealing with these mental health issues and depression and suicide and all of that kind of thing. Um, and I've done the spiritual warfare part, right? Where I've decreed and declared and I've fasted and I've prayed and I've interceded and I've broken agreements and I've done all of that. And um God has um, and I those things can be effective. I'm not saying that they're they're not effective, but God has brought me to a place um where instead of battling and fighting the darkness, um, it's a place that's way higher where darkness can't even exist, right? And it's it's going into that place of his presence and just resting completely and being hidden in his presence, um uh to where healing it can actually happen in an instant, but at this healing can happen over time too, right? So I'm saying that as far as encouraging those that are going through this themselves, there is, you know, there's the spiritual element to it, and it's very important to just to go to that place of um hiddenness in him, into his presence, um, where we are still and know, and the Lord will fight for us. All we have to do is be still, right? And um, and that looks different for every different person. My blueprint is the womb of the father, it's a place I go to. I bring my voice there in the spirit, and we're attached to this mysterious umbilical cord, and it's um it's it's it's giving me and them everything that they need. I don't even have to pray, I don't even have to use words, I don't have to ask because I know that the father knows what I need, I know the father knows what they need, and we're just there and we're just resting in his presence and we're just receiving everything that the father knows we need because he knows best, right? And um, you know, in that mysterious umbilical cord, the father is changing their DNA into the DNA of their heavenly father, and there's these things happening in the spirit, and um and it's a place of complete rest. I don't have to battle, and um, it's it's in the presence of God, it's just in the sweetness and the goodness and the presence of God, and from that place of rest, then you can go here in the natural, and there's all these tools God has given us. Um, that um there's therapy, there's medication management, there's um uh there's physical exercise, there's eating right, there's relationship with people, there's talking with people, um, there's all these tools that we can use coming not from a place of war, not from a place of battle or trying to fight something, not from a place of fear and anxiety, but coming from a place of rest. And um so so for those people that are struggling um with depression, anxiety, suicide, really anything, um there is the spiritual side, and then there is the um natural side of walking, walking things out, and we can't do one without the other. Um, you know, we can't do the spiritual and focus on if I just did the spiritual and went in that place of rest. Yes, God could do a miracle and he does do miracles, and when he does miracles, that's awesome. But most often our testimony comes from when the miracle happens by walking it out naturally, right? Walking out step by step. And um, so yeah, I could do the spiritual and I could just put my eyes on God's promises, but then like after Doug died, I could have done the spiritual and I could have put those my eyes on those two promises God gave me, but then my boys didn't go to therapy. We didn't do those things in the natural, and my boys in the natural would not be in good shape right now, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Um, so there is just this holistic element. Um, just like if you had cancer, you would pray for a miracle, but you would also do medication, you do chemotherapy, you do radiation, you do the, or you go the natural route, you keep your eyes on the promises. Every time you're in the natural and you get into fear because you're not seeing those promises come to fruition yet, that's when the promises of God, right, are important. But you definitely have to um use wisdom and walk things out in the natural.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

So that's great, that's very true. It takes all the different components in order to live a healthy life. Yes, that is for sure.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Yeah, how I would encourage others, um, going back to your question, I kind of went around a circle, but how I would um really encourage others um that are walking through the same thing, um, how I have championed, you know, God is so good. Um, I I look back, you know, immediately after Doug died and planning the funeral, and um even whenever I didn't feel him with me, he was with me now that I look back. But I do know um from the get-go after Doug died and planning his funeral, um I had this strong sense that um I mean I had never dealt with this before. I mean, who in the how do you deal with your planning a funeral for your husband who committed suicide? And do you let people know? Do you not leave let people like, you know, it was so like, what do I do here? But I knew from the get-go that um I could not push this under the rug. Like I had to start right there and start having real authentic, honest, and hard conversations. If I I couldn't if I didn't want this to happen to my boys, I didn't want people whispering behind their back, wondering what happened, asking them questions, all the different things. So I was just like, okay, you know what? We are gonna address this. I want my boys to see that there is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. There is nothing that they need to try and hide. Um, it's okay to talk about this. And so, like, we talked about it at the funeral and we read his suicide note because I wanted mainly my boys to see that it's okay. That we're gonna talk about this and it's gonna be okay. And I wanted other people to see that um these are real issues that people face, and I wanted it to be a step toward their healing as well. But my whole point is is having authentic, honest conversations. Um, and you know, I started that from the from the time he passed, and I've carried that through, and I've had to try to have some really authentic conversations with the boys, and um, we've had to have some authentic real conversations in therapy because we're bringing those things to the light, because where the light is, the shame can't, the darkness can't exist, right? And so um, what is it, Brene Brown says, Um, shame dies when stories are told. That's right. So that's my first step to championing championing to this to others is just being an example and being authentic and real and telling my story and um letting people know it's okay because a lot of times this the sh in the sharing of it where the healing can start. So um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

That's so good. That's so good. So if you were to encourage somebody to to sort of pursue redemption and really just uh go after the presence of the father, what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 31:44

That is a good question. Uh okay, what I would say would be um, first of all, God has a unique blueprint for each and every individual. And so what works for me might not work for you. Um so for me, it's the womb of the father, and it's the best place in the world for me. It's the sweetest place. It is just full of so much peace and shalom and goodness, and it's just yumminess, right? Um, I would God knows your heart. And you know, the Bible says, When you seek me, you will find me if you seek me with your whole heart. And you will, if you seek him with your whole heart, you will 100% absolutely find him. Now, you might not find them exactly in the way that you you think you would find him, and it sure might not go the way you think it's gonna go. Whenever I started seeking him, I had no idea that my whole world was gonna be turned upside down, shaken, changed, rearranged, and it doesn't resemble anything like it did um, well, nine years ago now, right? Sure. So um get ready, okay, because your life might be shaken up a little bit, but you will find him. I think the other thing is um just the realization that he's not some, he's not out there, he's right here in every part of ourselves, and so we don't going to church is good, reading the Bible is great, all the things are great, okay? Praying is great, like praying in the sense of what we typically think of praying is sure, um, but he's right here inside of us, and he's in every part of us, so you don't have to go anywhere to find him, he's right here, and you don't have to strive. Um, it's it's it's a place of rest, it's a place of stillness. Um I love meditation, meditation, not meditation in the new age sense, um, and meditation even more than just chewing on the word of God, but meditation in the sense of just getting still and quiet and knowing, and taking that knowing from your brain to actually integrating it in your entire being, I am in him, he is in me, and we are one. I mean, if you really contemplate that and just sit there in stillness and quiet and contemplate that, and then it becomes not just a I'm gonna do this for 30 minutes a day, but the Bible says and meditate day and night, you know, that means just living out of the presence of God, not the presence of God in heaven, but the presence of God inside our very own being continually, right? It's so it's not a it's not an act that we do once a day, it's a state of being, right? Um that there's my answer. There's my answer. It's a beautiful answer. And get quiet and just let God lead you because he will take you places, and it's it it will be beautiful and it will be just what you need.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Yeah, it makes me think of Psalm 46, 10. Be still and know that I am God.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Yes, yeah, that's exactly what it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Well, Anna, we've been so it's been such a pleasure to have you. We're excited to see how this book goes out and transforms the world, and we would love to know how you're doing in the future.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's been a joy. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

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